Ok brother Daryl, thanks for the update.

One additional point I'd like to make is that in this quote -

“He who presides over His church and the destinies of nations is carrying forward the last work to be accomplished for this world. To His angels He gives the commission to execute His judgments. Let the ministers awake, let them take in the situation. The work of judgment begins at the sanctuary. "And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brazen altar." Read Ezekiel 9:2-7." (Testimonies to Minsters, p.431)

It's important to see who she is addressing here. In the prior page it is clear, "I ask again, How can any who have the precious, solemn message for this time indulge in impure thoughts and unholy deeds, when they know that He that never slumbers and never sleeps see every action and reads every thought of the mind? Oh, it is because iniquity is found in God's professed people that He can do so little for them."(Ibid, p.430)

Then the paragraph right before the quote above (p.431) she says. "The triumph of the church is very near, the reward to be bestowed is almost within our reach, and yet iniquity is found among those who claim to have the full blaze of heavens light."

These people are no doubt Seventh Day Adventists.

So obviously when she mentions,"let the ministers awake, and take in the situation." and "The work of judgment begins at the sanctuary." She is no doubt speaking to our SDA church and sanctuary.

Hope you are enjoying your two week vacation and Happy Sabbath.

While we wait for Dedication to return, thought it'd be nice to post something concerning the Elijah prophet--

"Prophecy must be fulfilled..Somebody is to come in the spirit and power of Elijah, and when he appears, men may say: 'You are too earnest, you do not interpret the Scriptures in the proper way, let me tell you how to teach your message." (Test. to Ministers, p.475)

"Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD." (Mal 4:5)

Let us remember that we as Laodiceans are told by the Lord that we think we are "in need of nothing" (Rev. 3:17)
What is it that the Lord meant by this? TRUTH is needed! He knew we would say, "we have it all, no more truth is needed, no more prophets either."

ONE prophet was promised to come to our church after EGW and before the great and dreadful day. Not a multitude but ONE. Who in our church history was known for many interpretations of the prophecies and caused a church wide uproar(particularly those pertaining the the great and dreadful day of the Lord) and was rejected by the leaders?

Only one man fit that to a tee. I challenge anyone to search our history in this matter and come up with a comparable man.

"Those who allow prejudice to bar the mind against the reception of truth cannot receive the divine enlightenment. Yet, when a view of Scripture is presented, many do not ask, Is it true--in harmony with God's word? but, By whom is it advocated? and unless it comes through the very channel that pleases them, they do not accept it. So thoroughly satisfied are they with their own ideas that they will not examine Scripture evidence with a desire to learn, but refuse to be interested, merely because of their prejudices." (Test. to Min. p.105)

Basically you are basing your interpretation on the premise that Ezekiel is speaking ONLY to last day events.
In your understanding it seems this prophecy has nothing to do with the situation in Ezekiel's time.



That is NOT a correct interpretation.
It is this denial of the actual setting of Ezekiel's message that has given rise to this fantastic distortion of God's work with His church.



Ezekiel was speaking first to HIS OWN PEOPLE in the times he was living in.
As mentioned previously, Israel (what remained of the tribes) was under tribute to Babylon which had already taken some captives. The people in Jerusalem were hoping for deliverance. Both Ezekiel and Jeremiah were warning them of coming destruction. That is the first interpretation.
To understand the "repeat" one must understand the "original".
Anything else is a distortion.

We must FIRST UNDERSTAND the real literal meaning of the passage.


So lets' look at Ezekiel's writings.



God is sending Ezekiel to the children of Israel, with the entire message. Ezekiel is to literally SPEAK to them, and they will talk back to Ezekiel but he is not to be afraid of them or of their faces.

Now we can't say Ezekiel was sent to literally speak to the Adventist church -- he was sent to his own people.
Even though the northern kingdom was already conquered by Assyria, God is still calling those remaining, the people of ISRAEL.


"I send thee to the children of Israel",




Again God is telling Ezekiel (who is a captive in Babylon) to GO to the house of Israel, (his own people) and SPEAK to them.
He speaks their language, they understand his language, for it is their mother tongue. They are his people.
This is talking about the descendants of Jacob that are alive during Ezekiel's lifetime.



" the prophet Ezekiel was raised up from among the captives in Babylon, to warn and to comfort the exiles, and also to confirm the word of the Lord that was being spoken through Jeremiah. During the years that remained of Zedekiah's reign, (in Jerusalem) Ezekiel made very plain the folly of trusting to the false predictions of those who were causing the captives to hope for an early return to Jerusalem. He was also instructed to foretell, by means of a variety of symbols and solemn messages, the siege and utter destruction of Jerusalem. {PK 448.1}


Notice again that God is referring to the remaining descendants of Jacob as "the house of Israel:.

"He was instructed to foretell, by means of a variety of symbols and solemn messages, the siege and utter destruction of Jerusalem." {PK 448.1}

All the way through -- from chapter 2 onward, Ezekiel is predicting the destruction about to befall Jerusalem and the surrounding cities and He calls them ISRAEL, he calls them ISRAEL all the way through.
There is nothing "mystical" or "symbolical" about them being Israel.

To say -- it can't mean literal Israel because the northern part of Israel was already destroyed is just not accepting the reality of what is being said. Ezekiel 9 doesn't stand alone -- it is a part of the whole message.
To say Ezekiel isn't addressing his people and the situation facing them, because he calls them "the children of Israel" just doesn't make sense.

A person must understand the original fulfilment in order to understand what EGW is saying when she says it will again be fulfilled.

It was NOT angels that killed anyone when Babylon came and destroyed all the cities as well as Jerusalem and the temple. It was the Babylonian army.


"I will strengthen the arms of the king of Babylon, and the arms of Pharaoh shall fall down; and they shall know that I am the Lord, when I shall put My sword into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall stretch it out upon the land of Egypt." Ezekiel 29:3, 6; 30:25. {PK 454.1}

God's presence was leaving them.
It's really quite amazing to see God's reluctance as He moves away from His city.



SO HOW DOES THIS TRANSLATE TO THE END TIMES

In the vision of the shaking, (EW 259) we see the church dividing into two groups. As the darkness thickens
1. some, with strong faith and agonizing cries, are pleading with God.
2. Others indifferent and careless. They were not resisting the darkness around them, and it shuts them in like a thick cloud. The angels of God leaves these and went to the aid of the earnest, praying ones.

What happens to the two groups

1. A work of deep repentance and purification takes place in the lives of the first group and they share truth.
2. While the other group will rise up against the testimony. They did not join with those who prized victory and salvation enough to perseveringly plead and agonize for it, so they did not obtain it, and they were left behind in darkness.

There will be a division, a shaking.

1. The first group receives the Holy spirit. and pour forth the pure truth in convicting power.

2. The second plunge deeper into darkness as God's spirit withdraws, they turn against everything they once cherished. They join the ecumenical movement and will become the worst enemies of those who are in group one. They will be the leaders in undermining everything God's people believe. They will be "Canrights" and deceive many. When God reveals Himself on the side of His faithful ones, the "swords" will be in the hands of those who they deceived. The details are in GC 656.

And no -- I do not believe Houteff is a prophet or "spirit of Elijah" -- he points people to look for a kingdom in Palestine, while our belief is that Christ makes us citizens of God's Heavenly city, the New Jerusalem.

He teaches us to look for a pre-second coming kingdom of peace in this present world, while we look for deliverance from this present world in the kingdom of heaven.

It's the ecumenical religions that look to a kingdom in this present world, and from my observation Houteff has come up with a version of an earthly kingdom in Jerusalem, tailored for serious Adventists to fall into the deception that will sweep the world.

Welcome back. As usual, will respond back this weekend.
One quick comment. We are well aware that you haven't read much on what Victor Houteff wrote, most likely bits and pieces, which you base your belief upon.

Of these what have you read?
1)15 tracts (Number 1 to 15)
2)about 100 sermon studies(mostly dealing with Scripture prophecies)
3)Volume 1 and 2 of his original Shepherd's Rod books
4) 5 question and answerer books (over 160 Q and A from dis-believers and believers)
5) 9 "Jezreel Letters" (studies and advice addressed to the SDA leadership)
6)8 Misc. Tracts
7)10 volumes of Symbolic News reports (Scripture studies and reports from the field of the Elijah message work).

For those who would like to see and investigate for yourself , here is a great site that has all the above.
Srod Info.


The pre- millennial kingdom study is quite a involved and deep one. Another subject which we may start up soon.

"We should make the Bible its own expositor" (Test. to Min. p.106)

"He requires His people faith that rests upon the weight of evidence, not upon perfect knowledge.Those followers of Christ who accept the light that God sends them must obey the voice of God speaking to them when there are many other voices crying out against it. It requires discernment to distinguish the voice of God." (Testimonies , vol. 3, p.258)

"He gives evidence, which must be carefully investigated with a humble mind and teachable spirit, and all should decide from the weight of evidence." (Testimonies, vol. 3, p.255)

I've read considerable, and also dialoged with several followers of Houteff.

Have you ever actually read the last 10 or so chapters of Great Controversy in their entirety? Or have you used her writings mainly to search through to find quotations and sentences that lend themselves to being harmonized with the Shepherd’s Rod?

When read in context, there is no way one can harmonize EGW's revelations of endtime events with Houteff's.

The studies I've seen by Houteff as well as studies shared with me by other shepherd rod followers on the temporal kingdom, harmonize far more with dispensational interpretations than with anything EGW and the new Testament teaches. (Though they will strongly deny this).
Both Houteff and dispensational arguments build on the conditional prophecies to Israel in the Old Testament.
There are differences of course, especially in other theological topics. I'm aware that there are differences -- it is these differences which have mixed in considerable Adventist theology that makes Shepherd Rod teachings appeal to some Adventists who are discouraged by their church's lukewarmness and longing for a glorious church.
Satan can present a counterfeit so closely resembling the truth that it appeals to people who have known truth.

The BASIC premise and arguments of dispensational interpretations and Houteff's arguments both use the same OT texts and end up with a literal wonderful kingdom on earth prior to God's New Earth kingdom.


Both will use Daniel 2 as if the "stone" isn't Christ's visible second coming which leaves the earth devoid of human life, but rather they assert it is the beginning of an earthly kingdom.
They differ on the length of the kingdom of course, as well as who the king will be (Houteff says it's a man, a type of Christ, while dispensationalists say it is Christ himself) but what both ignore is that when this kingdom prophesied in Daniel 2 is set up IT WILL NEVER BE DESTROYED.

The dispensationalists have it destroyed at the end of the 1000 years, while Houteff has his temporal kingdom destroyed at the second coming!
And remember if they insist its a LITERAL kingdom, with a literal king, then the prediction, it shall "never be destroyed" should also refer to that LITERAL kingdom lasting forever. But in scripture the only earthly kingdom that lasts for ever is the one established in the New Jerusalem, which comes down from heaven after the 1000 years and the earth is made new.

"I've read considerable, and also dialoged with several followers of Houteff." This is not answering the question as posed.

Can you answer the question as asked? If you'll answer it and tell me which ones you've read I'll know more of your true knowledge of his message. If you'll not be straight forward here then we can't expect a meaningful dialogue and an attempt to get to --truth.

Again, here's the site that has it all to refresh your memory.
SRod info

Of course -- Satan is always working to turn people from Christ. Those who listen to him will not have eternal life, but face death.
That is not in question.
It's not the need to surrender one's life to Christ that I question, it's your timetable and exclusive nature of God's judgment that is in question.




I'm sorry, but that argument does not convince me. It really makes no sense at all. Basically it's saying -- if you want to escape the judgement, you can still be lukewarm Adventist now, just don't be active in the church and you can continue to live as you see fit, and you won't have to worry about consequences and you can head over to the "kingdom" later and join again.

-- Though that was probably not his intent yet he was just trying to dodge the plain statements of EGW which show Houteff is teaching a different message.

  


That's adding a lot of things to the plain statements.
I guess we will always be in disagreement on that. The message is in plain English that the Sunday test comes BEFORE the sealing, not after.

"The Lord has shown me clearly that the image of the beast will be formed before probation closes, for it is to be the great test for the people of God, by which their eternal destiny will be decided.--2SM 81 (1890).
This is the test that the people of God must have before they are sealed. All who prove their loyalty to God by observing His law, and refusing to accept a spurious sabbath, will rank under the banner of the Lord God Jehovah, and will receive the seal of the living God. Those who yield the truth of heavenly origin, and accept the Sunday sabbath, will receive the mark of the beast.... {Mar 164.4}




Nor was I saying that --
There is a big difference between those IN CHRIST, and those professing to be in Christ but doing their own thing.
According to you (and I agree) there are lots of Adventists who are not "in Christ". As to Palmers unity speech I most certainly do NOT agree with Palmer.

Those in Christ, walk with Him in truth and righteousness.


Quote:
EGW
"As the defenders of truth refuse to honor the Sunday-sabbath, some of them will be thrust into prison, some will be exiled, some will be treated as slaves....a large class who have professed faith in the third angel's message, but have not been sanctified through obedience to the truth,abandon their position, and join the ranks of the opposition. By uniting with the world and partaking of its spirit, they have come to view matters in nearly the same light; and when the test is brought, they are prepared to choose the easy, popular side. Men of talent and pleasing address, who once rejoiced in the truth, employ their powers to deceive and mislead souls. They become the most bitter enemies of their former brethren.When Sabbath-keepers are brought before the courts to answer for their faith, these apostates are the most efficient agents of Satan to misrepresent and accuse them, and by false reports and insinuations to stir up the rulers against them." {GC88 608.1}





I don't think we should be separating the thoughts and inserting something from five pages back to make her say something she is not saying.

The large class who have professed faith in the Third angel's message abandon their position and join the ranks of the opposition -- because they do not want to suffer ridicule, imprisonment, or be exiled or treated as slaves etc. etc.
This "large class" is shaken out during the crises time.

An apostate church (Babylon) will unite with the powers of earth and hell to place upon the forehead or in the hand, the mark of the beast, and prevail upon the children of God (Sabbath Keepers) to worship the beast and his image. They will seek to compel them to renounce their allegiance to God's law, and yield homage to the papacy. Then will come the times which will try men's souls; for the confederacy of apostasy will demand that the loyal subjects of God shall renounce the law of Jehovah, and repudiate the truth of His word. Then will the gold be separated from the dross, and it will be made apparent who are the godly, who are the loyal and true, and who are the disloyal, the dross and the tinsel. What clouds of chaff will then be borne away by the fan of God! Where now our eyes can discover only rich floors of wheat, will be chaff blown away with the fan of God. Every one who is not centered in Christ will fail to stand the test and ordeal of that day. While those who are clothed with Christ's righteousness will stand firm to truth and duty, those who have trusted in their own righteousness will be ranged under the black banner of the prince of darkness. Then it will be seen whether the choice is for Christ or Belial. {Mar 204.3}
Notice it is where now OUR EYES see wheat (faithful Adventists) it will be seen they were chaff and they will fail to stand the test. What test? It's clearly defined in several places.

Don't belittle the test -- it will come to every Sabbath keeper.

Also if the 144,000 are calling out people to come to a peaceful glorious kingdom established right here on earth, why would anyone worry about ridicule, and all that?




Now you either haven't been reading what I've written or are misrepresenting what I wrote.
While Ezekiel's message went to HIS PEOPLE, and was very much a message to them, I have never denied a future application. However, I do not agree with your placement of that future application.




For all your words on letting the Bible speak for itself, I'm very surprised at your reply. The Bible is very plain about the fall of literal Jerusalem at that time. EGW is very plain that Ezekiel is talking about the fall of Jerusalem at that time. Yet you deny it! And tell me I'm in error!


It's you that have been claiming a very strict word for word literal application -- I just told you what the literal reading was.
The literal reading is SIX MEN.


I could probably give you dozens of texts where God says He will do something, but it is done by people. Just like "giving His sword into the hands of the Babylonians"
"the Lord Himself declared through Ezekiel. "I the Lord have drawn forth My sword" {PK 452.1}
"I am the Lord, when I shall put My sword into the hand of the king of Babylon,"[PK454]
His angels are commissioned to do His will -- just what role they play isn't defined.
It may be to stop holding back the winds of strife.

I'll get back to you as promised but can answer my direct question?

"I've read considerable, and also dialoged with several followers of Houteff." This is not answering the question as posed.

Can you answer the question as asked? If you'll answer it and tell me which ones you've read I'll know more of your true knowledge of his message. If you'll not be straight forward here then we can't expect a meaningful dialogue and an attempt to get to --truth.

Again, here's the site that has it all to refresh your memory.
SRod info