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Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: Rick H] #164035
04/06/14 01:49 AM
04/06/14 01:49 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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James, I do not consider myself "naive and unlearned" for believing the Revelation describes a literal temple in Heaven. "The language of the Bible should be explained according to its obvious meaning, unless a symbol or figure is employed." {GC 598.3}

I'm sure you believe the Revelation describes things we can take as literal. Perhaps the New Earth? Possibly the "temple" (Rev 7:15) there?

Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: Mountain Man] #164037
04/06/14 02:33 AM
04/06/14 02:33 AM
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James Peterson  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
James, I do not consider myself "naive and unlearned" for believing the Revelation describes a literal temple in Heaven. "The language of the Bible should be explained according to its obvious meaning, unless a symbol or figure is employed." {GC 598.3}

I'm sure you believe the Revelation describes things we can take as literal. Perhaps the New Earth? Possibly the "temple" (Rev 7:15) there?


Well I can tell you that the "temple in heaven" spoken of in the Revelation, is not literal. Look at these two "contradictory" verses:

"And I saw no temple therein (the city, the New Jerusalem): for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it." (Rev. 21:22), AND

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out:and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God." (Rev. 3:12)

The New Jerusalem never had, does not have, nor will ever have a temple. How then does he make you a pillar in a non-existent temple?

///

Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: James Peterson] #164038
04/06/14 02:42 AM
04/06/14 02:42 AM
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Originally Posted By: James Peterson


My question to you is this: where did the Lord pitch HIS sanctuary and true tabernacle, a building which no man built? Remember that the quote above (Heb. 8:1-2) is the essence of everything being said before and after it, so be careful.

///



Hebrews 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things,

9:1 Then verily the first [covenant] had also ordinances of divine service, and an earthly sanctuary
9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself,


The author of Hebrews is clearly contrasting the earthly sanctuary of the Old Covenant (the building) with the heavenly sanctuary.

It's clear enough that Christ entered the heavenly sanctuary -- a sanctuary that God "pitched" not man.

Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: Rosangela] #164039
04/06/14 02:53 AM
04/06/14 02:53 AM
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James Peterson  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
The context is the book of Hebrews, which tells us where the holy places are into which Christ entered:

Heb 8:1,2 Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, a minister in the holy places, in the true tent that the Lord set up, not man.
Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.


Heb. 3:3-6 says ...

"For this man (Jesus) was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.."

Maybe you'll like to read Is. 66:1-2 ...

"Thus saith the Lord,
The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool:
where is the house that ye build unto me?
and where is the place of my rest?
For all those things hath mine hand made,
and all those things have been, saith the Lord:
but to this man will I look,
even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit,
and trembleth at my word."

Or John 14:22-23 ...

"Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words:and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."

And so forth ...

////

Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: dedication] #164040
04/06/14 02:56 AM
04/06/14 02:56 AM
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James Peterson  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
Originally Posted By: James Peterson


My question to you is this: where did the Lord pitch HIS sanctuary and true tabernacle, a building which no man built? Remember that the quote above (Heb. 8:1-2) is the essence of everything being said before and after it, so be careful.

///



Hebrews 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things,

9:1 Then verily the first [covenant] had also ordinances of divine service, and an earthly sanctuary
9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself,


The author of Hebrews is clearly contrasting the earthly sanctuary of the Old Covenant (the building) with the heavenly sanctuary.

It's clear enough that Christ entered the heavenly sanctuary -- a sanctuary that God "pitched" not man.


See the post just above.

///

Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: dedication] #164041
04/06/14 03:11 AM
04/06/14 03:11 AM
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Originally Posted By: James Peterson

"And I saw no temple therein (the city, the New Jerusalem): for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it." (Rev. 21:22),


No - there will be no temple in the New Jerusalem when it comes down from heaven. WHY? Because sin has been dealt with, there is no more need for it.


Why would God tell John there is no temple there, when in so many previous verses John saw all kinds of activity taking place in the temple in heaven?

The obvious answer is -- there is now a change, since there is no more sin problem that has separated mankind from God, a temple in which the work of reconciliation was carried out, is no longer needed.




Originally Posted By: James Peterson
"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out:and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God." (Rev. 3:12)


This obviously uses metaphors. People aren't turned into pillars in a building.
Here a "pillar" means people established in the truth, someone supporting truth. A person is not stationary column in a literal building, but rather a person who is supporting the truth of Christ, and will not be moved by arguments or coercion from these truths.


This text is very different from the texts depicting angels coming out of the temple. In those verses the word "temple" is used as a "place" situated in heaven, that contains furniture, and from which beings can go in and out.

Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: James Peterson] #164042
04/06/14 03:35 AM
04/06/14 03:35 AM
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Originally Posted By: James Peterson


"For this man (Jesus) was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.."


This is mixing things that are different.



"house" isn't even using the same word as "sanctuary" or even "temple".
"oikos" is a residence -- as in "a house".


In Hebrews we see "oikos" used as in -- house of Israel (Hebrews 8:8 and 8:10)

Or Hebrews 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;

Noah saved his "house" in the ark, in Hebrews 11:21

Moses was faithful in the position that he was given over the house of Israel.
Christ is far greater than Moses, and He is faithful over the house of spiritual Israel.



Originally Posted By: James Peterson
Maybe you'll like to read Is. 66:1-2 ...

"Thus saith the Lord,
The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool:
where is the house that ye build unto me?


That is simply saying God is not confined to the little temple that was built on earth.
God is not confined to any building, He is ruler of the entire universe!

That does not do away with the fact there is a sanctuary in heaven in which the sin problem is systematically dealt with.





Originally Posted By: James Peterson
Or John 14:22-23 ...

"Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words:and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."


God is with us!
Omnipresence is one of God's attributes.
A most precious reality.
But that does not negate the fact that God and Christ are in heaven, and Christ is our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary.

Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: Rick H] #164045
04/06/14 09:22 AM
04/06/14 09:22 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Most of you here have the possibility of studying carefully to know the answers and the reasons for the seeming discrepancy about the temple. I'm disappointed with the lack of scholarship on the matter.

Mrs. White gives us many details that help to clarify this, but the Bible alone should be sufficient. Let's look at the facts, and hopefully this will settle this question.

First, there is a temple in heaven.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. (Revelation 11:19)

And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. (Revelation 14:17)

And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: (Revelation 15:5)


Secondly, that temple is NOT in the city of Zion, the New Jerusalem.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
[Speaking of "that great city, the holy Jerusalem" (vs. 10)] And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. (Revelation 21:22)


Third, there will be a temple in the New Earth.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. (Revelation 7:14-15)


Originally Posted By: Ellen White
In the earth made new, only righteousness shall dwell. "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple." {RH, November 22, 1906 par. 19}


As further indication that there will most certainly be a temple in the New Earth, look at the following statements.

First, the following shows the distinction between the temple and the city, and that they are located separately, the temple outside of the city.
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Mount Zion was just before us, and on the mount was a glorious temple, and about it were seven other mountains, on which grew roses and lilies. And I saw the little ones climb, or, if they chose, use their little wings and fly to the top of the mountains, and pluck the never-fading flowers. There were all kinds of trees around the temple to beautify the place; the box, the pine, the fir, the oil, the myrtle, the pomegranate, and the fig-tree bowed down with the weight of its timely figs,--these made the place all over glorious. And as we were about to enter the holy temple, Jesus raised His lovely voice and said, "Only the 144,000 enter this place," and we shouted, "Alleluia." {CET 63.2}

This temple was supported by seven pillars, all of transparent gold, set with pearls most glorious. The wonderful things I there saw, I cannot describe. Oh, that I could talk in the language of Canaan, then could I tell a little of the glory of the better world. I saw there tables of stone in which the names of the 144,000 were engraved in letters of gold. {CET 63.3}

After we beheld the glory of the temple, we went out, and Jesus left us, and went to the city. Soon we heard His lovely voice again, saying: "Come, My people, you have come out of great tribulation, and done My will; suffered for Me; come in to supper, for I will gird Myself, and serve you." We shouted, "Alleluia! glory!" and entered into the city. {CET 64.1}


Now, notice that same description given in Early Writings as well. This time, I'll quote the preceding paragraphs for some important additional context which demonstrates clearly that she is speaking of both the New Jerusalem and the Temple as being in the New Earth, just as we would expect to be the case from the Bible's description.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
With Jesus at our head we all descended from the city down to this earth, on a great and mighty mountain, which could not bear Jesus up, and it parted asunder, and there was a mighty plain. Then we looked up and saw the great city, with twelve foundations, and twelve gates, three on each side, and an angel at each gate. We all cried out, "The city, the great city, it's coming, it's coming down from God out of heaven," and it came and settled on the place where we stood. Then we began to look at the glorious things outside of the city. There I saw most glorious houses, that had the appearance of silver, supported by four pillars set with pearls most glorious to behold. These were to be inhabited by the saints. In each was a golden shelf. I saw many of the saints go into the houses, take off their glittering crowns and lay them on the shelf, then go out into the field by the houses to do something with the earth; not as we have to do with the earth here; no, no. A glorious light shone all about their heads, and they were continually shouting and offering praises to God. {EW 17.3}

I saw another field full of all kinds of flowers, and as I plucked them, I cried out, "They will never fade." Next I saw a field of tall grass, most glorious to behold; it was living green and had a reflection of silver and gold, as it waved proudly to the glory of King Jesus. Then we entered a field full of all kinds of beasts--the lion, the lamb, the leopard, and the wolf, all together in perfect union. We passed through the midst of them, and they followed on peaceably after. Then we entered a wood, not like the dark woods we have here; no, no; but light, and all over glorious; the branches of the trees moved to and fro, and we all cried out, "We will dwell safely in the wilderness and sleep in the woods." We passed through the woods, for we were on our way to Mount Zion. {EW 18.1}

As we were traveling along, we met a company who also were gazing at the glories of the place. I noticed red as a border on their garments; their crowns were brilliant; their robes were pure white. As we greeted them, I asked Jesus who they were. He said they were martyrs that had been slain for Him. With them was an innumerable company of little ones; they also had a hem of red on their garments. Mount Zion was just before us, and on the mount was a glorious temple, and about it were seven other mountains, on which grew roses and lilies. And I saw the little ones climb, or, if they chose, use their little wings and fly, to the top of the mountains and pluck the never-fading flowers. There were all kinds of trees around the temple to beautify the place: the box, the pine, the fir, the oil, the myrtle, the pomegranate, and the fig tree bowed down with the weight of its timely figs--these made the place all over glorious. And as we were about to enter the holy temple, Jesus raised His lovely voice and said, "Only the 144,000 enter this place," and we shouted, "Alleluia." {EW 18.2}

This temple was supported by seven pillars, all of transparent gold, set with pearls most glorious. The wonderful things I there saw I cannot describe. Oh, that I could talk in the language of Canaan, then could I tell a little of the glory of the better world. I saw there tables of stone in which the names of the 144,000 were engraved in letters of gold. After we beheld the glory of the temple, we went out, and Jesus left us and went to the city. Soon we heard His lovely voice again, saying, "Come, My people, you have come out of great tribulation, and done My will; suffered for Me; come in to supper, for I will gird Myself, and serve you." We shouted, "Alleluia! glory!" and entered into the city. And I saw a table of pure silver; it was many miles in length, yet our eyes could extend over it. I saw the fruit of the tree of life, the manna, almonds, figs, pomegranates, grapes, and many other kinds of fruit. I asked Jesus to let me eat of the fruit. He said, "Not now. Those who eat of the fruit of this land go back to earth no more. But in a little while, if faithful, you shall both eat of the fruit of the tree of life and drink of the water of the fountain." And He said, "You must go back to the earth again and relate to others what I have revealed to you." Then an angel bore me gently down to this dark world. Sometimes I think I can stay here no longer; all things of earth look so dreary. I feel very lonely here, for I have seen a better land. Oh, that I had wings like a dove, then would I fly away and be at rest!


So, after the city descends, the temple and the city are both in sight of each other, the former up on a mountain outside of the city. This is in the New Earth. Yes, there will be no more sin. But the temple will endure for eternity.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: Rick H] #164046
04/06/14 09:27 AM
04/06/14 09:27 AM
Rosangela  Offline
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The book of Hebrews uses the technical expression ta hagia, "holy places," found nowhere else in the NT. In the LXX it is used for the earthly sanctuary. And the book of Hebrews says specifically that the holy places not made with hands, where Christ entered, are in heaven.

Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: Green Cochoa] #164060
04/06/14 12:55 PM
04/06/14 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Most of you here have the possibility of studying carefully to know the answers and the reasons for the seeming discrepancy about the temple. I'm disappointed with the lack of scholarship on the matter.
Green Cochoa.




The Bible plainly says there is no temple in the New Jerusalem, that is what I was addressing.
God however IS in the New Jerusalem, so the texts of worshipping God in the "temple" on the New Earth, would now contradict according to your "scholarship."

Of course James will rejoice to see this discrepancy amongst those who know there is a temple in heaven where Christ is officiating as priest.

But let's look at this more fully, for indeed there is a change on the New Earth.
According to EGW, the temple, after the sin problem is forever ended, is like a museum outside the city and only the 144,000 can enter it. So how can the "great multitude" be serving God in the temple?
And we know God and the Lamb and His throne are in the city, where there is no temple. And God's redeemed will also be in the city, not outside the city.

A careful comparison of Revelation 21-22 with Ezekiel's temple in the last chapters of his book, give credence that the New Jerusalem itself will take the place of the "temple" in which people will come to worship and serve God upon His throne in the New Jerusalem.

I don't have time right now to do all the comparisons as I have to go to work.

The arguments being addressed here on this thread aren't about Christ serving as High Priest after sin is fully dealt with, hopefully we are all in agreement that the High Priestly work will be fully completed when Christ leaves the sanctuary at the close of probation. Of course there will be the investigation of the plan of salvation during the Millennium, but once the New Jerusalem comes to earth after the millennium, and the earth is made new, the priestly work in the temple will no longer continue for reconciliation of all things will be completed --
It will still be outside the city as a reminder for our understanding of salvation, but no longer in operation.

We will be face to face with our God, walking and talking personally with Jesus. It will no longer be necessary to go through the temple, through a mediator, which is now our Savior Jesus Christ officiating in the heavenly sanctuary. But because of what Christ is doing NOW, we will literally be in God's presence.


The important thing is that Christ is NOW in the heavenly sanctuary dealing with the sin problem.

James is saying there is no temple in heaven at all.











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