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Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: Rick H] #164127
04/08/14 04:26 PM
04/08/14 04:26 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Time (and not review) reveals who is of God and who is not.

No, it's not just a question of time. His debt had been forgiven (Mt 18:27), but, after the discovery of new facts (v. 31), it's reinstated (v. 34).

Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: Rick H] #164131
04/08/14 04:41 PM
04/08/14 04:41 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
James, I should explain why I bowed out of this study. I am not evading answering your question. My goal for being on this thread was to learn what you believe. Now that I know you believe the "the temple which is in heaven" symbolizes church members I now know what you believe.

Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: James Peterson] #164132
04/08/14 04:47 PM
04/08/14 04:47 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
"The doctrine (of an investigative judgement) came out of an erroneous interpretation of Dan. 8:14. But the High Priest only sprinkled the blood for the "cleansing of the sanctuary". If you find otherwise, then show where he investigated the historical records of the dead."

A human high priest couldn't read the thoughts or the life of others. A symbolical service couldn't portray this kind of detail. But, as Dedication said, on the Day of Atonement those who did not sincerely repent from their sins were cut off from the people. This implies a separation, or judgment, in heaven.

In fact, the Jews have traditionally considered the Day of Atonement as the Day of Judgment. "Even the angels, we are told in the Ritual, are seized with fear and trembling; they hurry to and fro and say: ‘Behold the Day of Judgment has come.’ The Day of Atonement is the Day of Judgment" (Paul Isaac Hershon, Treasures of the Talmud [1882], p. 97).

Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: Rosangela] #164150
04/09/14 03:26 AM
04/09/14 03:26 AM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Time (and not review) reveals who is of God and who is not.

No, it's not just a question of time. His debt had been forgiven (Mt 18:27), but, after the discovery of new facts (v. 31), it's reinstated (v. 34).

That's not what the parable was about. Jesus was illustrating how God's forgiveness should lead to regeneration; and if it does not, then you will die. His conclusion was, "So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses" OR, in other words, "if you do not repent and reflect my character, you have no part in me; and in the end, you will surely perish."

It's interesting that it was PETER who was asking, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?" He became the one who needed the most forgiveness after he denied Jesus three times. "So when they had eaten breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, 'Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me more than these? ... Feed My lambs.'" (John 21:15)

As it is written, "If anyone be in Christ, he is a NEW creation." And if he has the Holy Spirit, then he is sealed for salvation; and if not, he will certainly perish. There is NO INVESTIGATION. The question at the end is this: do you have the Holy Spirit, yes or no? Have you not read where it is written, "the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: 'The Lord knows those who are His,' and, 'Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity'"? (2 Tim. 2:19)

///

Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: Mountain Man] #164151
04/09/14 03:34 AM
04/09/14 03:34 AM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
James, I should explain why I bowed out of this study. I am not evading answering your question. My goal for being on this thread was to learn what you believe. Now that I know you believe the "the temple which is in heaven" symbolizes church members I now know what you believe.

ok

For the record: "For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house -- as a servant -- (for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward), but Christ -- as a Son -- over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.." (Heb. 3:4-6)

///

Last edited by James Peterson; 04/09/14 04:04 AM. Reason: To add biblical evidence for the church being the 'temple in heaven'
Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: Rosangela] #164152
04/09/14 03:56 AM
04/09/14 03:56 AM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
"The doctrine (of an investigative judgement) came out of an erroneous interpretation of Dan. 8:14. But the High Priest only sprinkled the blood for the "cleansing of the sanctuary". If you find otherwise, then show where he investigated the historical records of the dead."

1. A human high priest couldn't read the thoughts or the life of others. A symbolical service couldn't portray this kind of detail. But, as Dedication said, on the Day of Atonement those who did not sincerely repent from their sins were cut off from the people. This implies a separation, or judgment, in heaven.

2. In fact, the Jews have traditionally considered the Day of Atonement as the Day of Judgment. "Even the angels, we are told in the Ritual, are seized with fear and trembling; they hurry to and fro and say: ‘Behold the Day of Judgment has come.’ The Day of Atonement is the Day of Judgment" (Paul Isaac Hershon, Treasures of the Talmud [1882], p. 97).

1. Are you imagining things now? If God gave the symbol of sprinkling of blood for cleansing (AND THAT ALONE), who are you to add other imaginary procedures and meanings of those imaginary procedures to the ceremony? The High Priest NEVER investigated anything because God NEVER provided anything for investigation. The High Priest was to sprinkle the blood of the sacrifice and it was sufficient to "cleanse the sanctuary". Period. It was left up to each individual to believe, to repent and to vow a new beginning; which demonstrates rather markedly that the sanctuary was ALWAYS the congregation and not the building.

2. Of course the Day of Atonement was the day of judgement. Jesus himself said, "Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself." (John 12:31) He is the one through whom and by whose death, an otherwise sinful world in complete rebellion was made at one with God. Paul Hershon doesn't know what he talking about.

///

Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: James Peterson] #164156
04/09/14 07:05 AM
04/09/14 07:05 AM
dedication  Online Content
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,610
Canada
Originally Posted By: James Peterson
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Time (and not review) reveals who is of God and who is not.

No, it's not just a question of time. His debt had been forgiven (Mt 18:27), but, after the discovery of new facts (v. 31), it's reinstated (v. 34).

That's not what the parable was about. Jesus was illustrating how God's forgiveness should lead to regeneration; and if it does not, then you will die. ...As it is written, "If anyone be in Christ, he is a NEW creation." And if he has the Holy Spirit, then he is sealed for salvation; and if not, he will certainly perish. There is NO INVESTIGATION. The question at the end is this: do you have the Holy Spirit, yes or no? Have you not read where it is written, "the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: 'The Lord knows those who are His,' and, 'Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity'"? (2 Tim. 2:19)

///

But it is what the parable is about --
For
yes, justification (having your sins forgiven) should lead to regeneration, if it doesn't a person has turned away from the divine connection and will die. (no longer justified).

In the parable Matt. 18:27,34,35 –”The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go free. Later, because the servants justification did not lead to regeneration the master turned him over to the jailers until he should pay back all he owed. Why did this man lose his justification? The reason was not based on his belief in the king, or the forgiveness he sought and received, it was based on his later actions!


As long as a person remains in connection with Christ, and by the Holy Spirit is putting to death the deeds of the flesh, (Romans 8:13) yes He is in a saving relationship.
But the person's choice is never removed.

Paul himself who praises God for his salvation says in:
1 Cor. 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.


1 Tim. 1:19 –”Holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith.”
One can’t shipwreck a ship that never was, nor can they hold on to something they never had in the first place.


True -- the Lord knows who are His.
But what about everyone else?





Daniel 7:9
As I looked,
thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
His clothing was as white as snow;
the hair of his head was white like wool.
His throne was flaming with fire,
and its wheels were all ablaze.
10
A river of fire was flowing,
coming out from before him.
Thousands upon thousands attended him;
ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.
The court was seated,
and the books were opened..
13 “In my vision at night I looked,
and there before me was one like a son of man,
coming with the clouds of heaven.
He approached the Ancient of Days
and was led into his presence.
14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power;


[the Son of Man (Jesus) speaking]
Rev. 3:4 There are names...
which have not defiled their garments;
and they shall walk with me in white:
for they are worthy.
3:5 He that overcomes,
the same shall be clothed in white raiment;
and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,
but I will confess his name before my Father,
and before his angels.

Dan. 26 “For the court will sit,








Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: James Peterson] #164157
04/09/14 07:21 AM
04/09/14 07:21 AM
dedication  Online Content
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,610
Canada
Originally Posted By: James Peterson
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Now I know you believe the "the temple which is in heaven" symbolizes church members I now know what you believe.

For the record: "For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house -- as a servant -- (for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward), but Christ -- as a Son -- over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.." (Heb. 3:4-6)
///

And for the record:
"house" is not the same word as "sanctuary" or even "temple".
"oikos" is a residence -- as in "a house".

In the book of Hebrews we see "oikos" used as in -- the house of Israel (Hebrews 8:8 and 8:10)
Or Hebrews 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Noah saved his "house" in the ark, in Hebrews 11:21

Moses was faithful in the position that he was given over the house of Israel.
Christ is far greater than Moses, and He is faithful over the house of spiritual Israel.

But that word is not the same as "hagios" or TA HAGIA which the author of Hebrews uses ten times when speaking of the heavenly sanctuary where Christ is ministering as our High Priest.

Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: dedication] #164159
04/09/14 12:50 PM
04/09/14 12:50 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
NON-SDA
Active Member 2019

Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: dedication
But it is what the parable is about --
For
yes, justification (having your sins forgiven) should lead to regeneration, if it doesn't a person has turned away from the divine connection and will die. (no longer justified).

In the parable Matt. 18:27,34,35 –”The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go free. Later, because the servants justification did not lead to regeneration the master turned him over to the jailers until he should pay back all he owed. Why did this man lose his justification? The reason was not based on his belief in the king, or the forgiveness he sought and received, it was based on his later actions! As long as a person remains in connection with Christ, and by the Holy Spirit is putting to death the deeds of the flesh, (Romans 8:13) yes He is in a saving relationship. But the person's choice is never removed.

Paul himself who praises God for his salvation says in: 1 Cor. 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. 1 Tim. 1:19 –”Holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith.” One can’t shipwreck a ship that never was, nor can they hold on to something they never had in the first place.

True -- the Lord knows who are His.

As I said, Jesus' own "conclusion was: 'So My heavenly Father also will do to you (cast you into hell) if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses' OR, in other words, 'if you do not repent and reflect my character, you have no part in me; and in the end, you will surely perish.'" From the very beginning, the forgived in the parable was not really cleansed. As it is written:

"For on that day the (High Priest) shall make atonement for you, to cleanse you, that you may be clean from all your sins before the Lord," YET ... "for any person who is not afflicted in soul on that same day shall be cut off from his people," AS IN ... "'Why have we fasted,' they say, 'and You have not seen? Why have we afflicted our souls, and You take no notice?' In fact, in the day of your fast you find pleasure and exploit all your laborers." (Lev. 16:30, Lev. 23:29, Is. 58:3)

The meaning of the parable was given by Jesus himself. There is no need to add to it. He was merely saying that forgiveness by God should result in a change of character towards the Divine similitude; but if not, there's a price to pay. On the other hand, what you are trying to do is add unnecessary significance to each and every detail without consulting the reason for the parable or the conclusion at which Jesus himself arrived. Consider what Peter was asking and, if you can, the answer for which he might have been hoping. Then read the parable from that perspective; and refrain from imposing "the doctrine" on it.

///

Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: dedication] #164160
04/09/14 01:44 PM
04/09/14 01:44 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
NON-SDA
Active Member 2019

Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: dedication
True -- the Lord knows who are His.
But what about everyone else?

Daniel 7:9
As I looked,
thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
His clothing was as white as snow;
the hair of his head was white like wool.
His throne was flaming with fire,
and its wheels were all ablaze.
10
A river of fire was flowing,
coming out from before him.
Thousands upon thousands attended him;
ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.
The court was seated,
and the books were opened..

13 “In my vision at night I looked,
and there before me was one like a son of man,
coming with the clouds of heaven.
He approached the Ancient of Days
and was led into his presence.
14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power;


[the Son of Man (Jesus) speaking]
Rev. 3:4 There are names...
which have not defiled their garments;
and they shall walk with me in white:
for they are worthy.
3:5 He that overcomes,
the same shall be clothed in white raiment;
and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,
but I will confess his name before my Father,
and before his angels.

Dan. 26 “For the court will sit ...


Putting texts together is good, but you must be careful of what you are juxtaposing. May I remind you of what Jesus says happens in heaven when any person repents unto salvation (i.e. is truly baptized of water and the Spirit -- John 3:5), "there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance" (Luke 15:7), and "there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents" (v.10).

Having said that, the passages you quoted from Daniel do NOT speak of an investigative judgement starting in 1844. Rather, it was fulfilled when Jesus ascended into heaven as described in Rev. 5. The beast spoken of in Dan. 7:11 was Rome, and it's judgement was it's fall and the beginning of the rise of Christianity.

Thirdly, do you know what "and the books were opened ..." means?

///

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