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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice. #16403
07/04/06 12:39 AM
07/04/06 12:39 AM
J
John Boskovic  Offline
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Posts: 1,196
Ontario
Many good angles there, Tom.

Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice. #16404
07/04/06 01:00 AM
07/04/06 01:00 AM
C
Charity  Offline OP
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Do you think this statement is true:

'Man is a greater enemy to the grace of God than he is to the law itself [!]. . .'

Today we don't see monks selling indulgences. Instead, Christians are buying indulgences of their own kind, and that for nothing. It's a better deal and more popular. But human nature is such that even while we might talk of free grace and give ourselves a 'plenary remission' at no charge, don't those who do this adhere all the more doggedly to one kind of legalism or another but in disguise? I think Luther is on to something.

So Tom, switching topics somewhat, what is it about the human will that makes it the highest power. How much power is there in the will of man before and after conversion, especially long after conversion.

Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice. #16405
07/04/06 03:02 AM
07/04/06 03:02 AM
J
John Boskovic  Offline
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Posts: 1,196
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I know you asked Tom, but here is my answer anyway.

I agree with what you said.

Re your question: The will has the same power before, after and ever, but it's power is directed in opposing directions; before than after.

Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice. #16406
07/04/06 04:39 AM
07/04/06 04:39 AM
Tom  Offline
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Quote:

Man is a greater enemy to the grace of God than he is to the law itself.




Yes, I think this is true. Luther was a great man of God. He would have loved Jones and Waggoner .

I had Luther's commentary on Galatians, but I don't know where it went. I remember thinking it was excellent as I was reading it.

I think I quoted this statement from EGW a bit earlier:

In the matchless gift of His Son, God has encircled the whole world with an atmosphere of grace as real as the air which circulates around the globe. All who choose to breathe this life-giving atmosphere will live and grow up to the stature of men and women in Christ Jesus. (SC 68)

In Gen. 3:15 we read of God's intervening in the work of the serpent. EGW comments:

God declares, "I will put enmity." This enmity is supernaturally put, and not naturally entertained. When man sinned, his nature became evil, and he was in harmony, and not at variance, with Satan. The lofty usurper, having succeeded in seducing our first parents as he had seduced angels, counted on securing their allegiance and co-operation in all his enterprises against the government of Heaven. There was no enmity between himself and the fallen angels. Whatever discord might exist between them, all were united, as by bands of steel, in their opposition and hatred against God. But when Satan heard that the seed of the woman should bruise the serpent's head, he knew that though he had succeeded in depraving human nature, and assimilating it to his own, yet by some mysterious process, God would restore to man his lost power, and enable him to resist and overcome his conqueror.

It is the grace that Christ implants in the soul that creates the enmity against Satan. Without this grace, man would continue the captive of Satan, a servant ever ready to do his bidding. The new principle in the soul creates conflict where hitherto had been peace. The power which Christ imparts, enables man to resist the tyrant and usurper. Whenever a man is seen to abhor sin instead of loving it, when he resists and conquers those passions that have held sway within, there is seen the operation of a principle wholly from above. The Holy Spirit must be constantly imparted to man, or he has no disposition to contend against the powers of darkness. (RH 7/18/82)


This is something God does for every human being. If it were not so, Calvin and Augustine would be right; man would be saved or lost by a unilateral decree of God.

But this is not the case. The free will of man is real, because God intervened to keep it so when man delivered it to Satan.

The will has the power to choose whom man will serve, but not the power to overcome sin.

What you need to understand is the true force of the will. This is the governing power in the nature of man, the power of decision, or of choice. Everything depends on the right action of the will. The power of choice God has given to men; it is theirs to exercise. You cannot change your heart, you cannot of yourself give to God its affections; but you can choose to serve Him. You can give Him your will; He will then work in you to will and to do according to His good pleasure. Thus your whole nature will be brought under the control of the Spirit of Christ; your affections will be centered upon Him, your thoughts will be in harmony with Him. (SC 47)

This is Romans 7. We can choose to do right, any of us, converted or unconverted, but we cannot do it without the power of God. However, God gives that power freely to anyone who desires it.

I'm not sure I've answered your question Mark. Hopefully I've been clear at any rate. If I haven't answered it, you can re-ask it and I'll try again.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice. #16407
07/04/06 11:40 AM
07/04/06 11:40 AM
C
Charity  Offline OP
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Posts: 4,583
USA
Even as Ellen White speaks of the will as that 'governing power' placing it at the forfront of our natures, did you notice in the same statement what a humble position it still has. You cannot charge your heart she says, you can only give your will to God.

How does that compare with your statement: "The will has the power to choose whom man will serve, but not the power to overcome sin."?


Here is a quote from Zwingli that has quite a bit of similarity to some of the things John has been saying:

Quote:

Before the fall, man had been created with a free will, so that, had he been willing, he might have kept the law; his nature was pure; the disease of sin had not yet reached him; his life was in his own hands. But having desired to be as God, he died . . . and not he alone, but all his posterity. Since then in Adam all men are dead and no one may recall them to life, until the Spirit, which is God himself, raises them from the dead.



Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice. #16408
07/04/06 04:34 PM
07/04/06 04:34 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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In the following quotes it is clear to me that our will is by default under the controlling influence of Satan until we surrender it to the controlling influence of the Holy Spirit. First we give it to Jesus and then He gives it back to us sanctified and fortified. It empowers us to cooperate with heavenly agencies, to govern our faculties of mind and body, to cultivate character for eternity - unto the honor and glory of God our Father.

5T 515
This will, that forms so important a factor in the character of man, was at the Fall given into the control of Satan; and he has ever since been working in man to will and to do of his own pleasure, but to the utter ruin and misery of man. {5T 515.1}

MB 62
God does not design that our will should be destroyed, for it is only through its exercise that we can accomplish what He would have us do. Our will is to be yielded to Him, that we may receive it again, purified and refined, and so linked in sympathy with the Divine that He can pour through us the tides of His love and power. {MB 62.2}

2MCP 692
The Spirit of God does not propose to do our part, either in the willing or the doing. This is the work of the human agent in cooperating with the divine agencies. As soon as we incline our will to harmonize with God's will, the grace of Christ stands to cooperate with the human agent; but it will not be the substitute to do our work independent of our resolving and decidedly acting. {2MCP 691.3}

Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice. #16409
07/04/06 10:27 PM
07/04/06 10:27 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
We come from a Wesleyan tradition, not Zwingli. Zwingli's theology was totally different from Wesley's, and from SDAism.

Zwingli's thoeology was Reformist. What in John's theology is reformist? I'm not seeing the similarity. I don't think John believes that our will is set free by a divine decree of God, or a unilateral action on His part.

The starting point of Zwingli's theology was God's sovereignty. Nothing can thwart the divine will. That's not in the least what John has been saying.

Ellen White's statement was emphasizing the role of the will, as was mine. We can choose whom we will serve, but we must be born again. We do not have the ability to beget ourselves. When we respond to the Holy Spirit (which we can do), *then* He begets a new life in the soul (which we cannot do).

A central point to keep in mind is that God does not select some for salvation, but has selected all. The only way a person can be lost is to refuse to be drawn.

"No man can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto Me." None will ever come to Christ, save those who respond to the drawing of the Father's love. But God is drawing all hearts unto Him, and only those who resist His drawing will refuse to come to Christ.(DA 387)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice. #16410
07/04/06 11:17 PM
07/04/06 11:17 PM
C
Charity  Offline OP
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
MM, that selection of quotes strikes a good balance.

Tom, you've made a few statements about Luther's doctrine on the forum, maybe not on this thread, that I've found were inaccurate but I didn't say anything. Now your doing the same with Zwingli. I'm just mentioning that for the benefit of our readers. I would rather spend time addressing the issues directly though because in the end, it doesn't matter what Luther or Zwingli taught. What matters is scripture so I'd like us to keep our focus there. But I can tell you unequivocally that these two men who repeatedly showed the world they were ready to lay down their lives for the sake of the gospel of Christ were truly in the forefront of the ranks of those who took the Bible only as their rule of faith and practise. It lends credibility to their statements.

Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice. #16411
07/05/06 12:07 AM
07/05/06 12:07 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
The starting-point for Zwingli's theology and personal piety is God's sovereignty. Nothing can hinder God's foreknowledge and election.

http://www.unizh.ch/irg/zwi-engl.html

You're the one who brought up Zwingli, not I. If you think I'm being inacccurate, please present the inaccuracy. Don't just make an empty claim. Present some evidence. If I'm wrong, I'd like to know, so I can change my position.

If you want to keep the focus on the Scriptures instead of Zwingli, then wouldn't it make sense to quote Scripture instead of Zwingli?

Why would the fact that one is willing to die add any credibility to their statements? People throughout history have been willing to die for all sorts of crazy things. Look at the suicide bombers of today. In saying this, I'm not saying anything against Zwingli or Luther, just against your faulty logic that the fact that they were willing to die for their beliefs adds some credibility to their statements.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice. #16412
07/05/06 01:23 AM
07/05/06 01:23 AM
C
Charity  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2020

4500+ Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
I mention self-sacrifice for the gospel because this is one of the things that the apostle also did in scripture. In making his recommendation to the church of certain individual(s) he points to this fact - the person(s) hazarded their lives for the sake of the gospel.

Regarding Wesleyism, one of the weakness of that theology could well be that there was too much emphasis on methodology, man's part, hence, Methodism, and not enough on Divine grace. So your point is well taken that Adventism has been influenced in that direction. What we want though is not Calvanism or Lutherism or Methodism or any other ism including Adventism, except to the extent that we get a balanced view of Christ and the Word.

Let's compare some of these statements from Ellen White and the reformers and pioneers with scripture. Below is the entire first chapter of Ephesians so we have it in context:

Quote:

1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
1:2 Grace [be] to you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ.
1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:
1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
1:16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
1:19 And what [is] the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],
1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
1:22 And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church,
1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. Ephesians



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