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Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: dedication] #164161
04/09/14 02:33 PM
04/09/14 02:33 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2013
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Canada
Originally Posted By: dedication
Originally Posted By: James Peterson
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Now I know you believe the "the temple which is in heaven" symbolizes church members I now know what you believe.

For the record: "For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house -- as a servant -- (for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward), but Christ -- as a Son -- over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.." (Heb. 3:4-6)
///

And for the record:
"house" is not the same word as "sanctuary" or even "temple".
"oikos" is a residence -- as in "a house".

In the book of Hebrews we see "oikos" used as in -- the house of Israel (Hebrews 8:8 and 8:10)
Or Hebrews 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Noah saved his "house" in the ark, in Hebrews 11:21

Moses was faithful in the position that he was given over the house of Israel.
Christ is far greater than Moses, and He is faithful over the house of spiritual Israel.

But that word is not the same as "hagios" or TA HAGIA which the author of Hebrews uses ten times when speaking of the heavenly sanctuary where Christ is ministering as our High Priest.

Tell me, what word is translated "HOUSE" below in Is. 66:1-4 and does the original word denote a family or a building?

Originally Posted By: Isaiah
Thus says the Lord:

"Heaven is My throne,
And earth is My footstool.
Where is the HOUSE that you will build Me?
And where is the place of My rest?

For all those things My hand has made,
And all those things exist,
Says the Lord.
But on this one will I look:
On him who is poor and of a contrite spirit,
And who trembles at My word.

He who kills a bull is as if he slays a man;
He who sacrifices a lamb, as if he breaks a dog’s neck;
He who offers a grain offering, as if he offers swine’s blood;
He who burns incense, as if he blesses an idol.
Just as they have chosen their own ways,
And their soul delights in their abominations,

So will I choose their delusions,
And bring their fears on them;
Because, when I called, no one answered,
When I spoke they did not hear;
But they did evil before My eyes,
And chose that in which I do not delight."


///

Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: James Peterson] #164179
04/10/14 12:05 AM
04/10/14 12:05 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,610
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Originally Posted By: James Peterson


The meaning of the parable was given by Jesus himself. There is no need to add to it. He was merely saying that forgiveness by God should result in a change of character towards the Divine similitude; but if not, there's a price to pay. On the other hand, what you are trying to do is add unnecessary significance to each and every detail without consulting the reason for the parable or the conclusion at which Jesus himself arrived. Consider what Peter was asking and, if you can, the answer for which he might have been hoping. Then read the parable from that perspective; and refrain from imposing "the doctrine" on it.

///


I agree -- "He was merely saying that [u]forgiveness by God should result in a change of character towards the Divine similitude; but if not, there's a price to pay".

Justification (forgiven of all sin) releases us from the guilt and depressing weight of sin. Now we are to be dead to sin and alive in Christ. Growing in His grace to reflect His character more and more.

But how is it determined what "price" will be executed -- life or death? Who is to say how far the Holy Spirit has led a person?
And how is it determined whose character is genuinely being changed towards the Divine similitude by the Holy Spirit and not a "dead works" program?

There are people who appear very pious and good and even loving and kind, whose characters have not been changed into a divine similitude. And there are people, who are covered by God's grace, but who others would probably condemn, yet whose characters are being refined into the Divine similitude.


God allowing sin to go on for thousands of years is for a purpose -- to show all intelligent created beings that God's law and His dealings with individuals is holy, just and good, and His ways are true, holy, and righteous.
God isn't going to simply assign salvation to those He alone knows are His, while leaving the rest to eternal destruction. The court is seated, the books are opened and Christ is presenting the names of those who have on his robe of righteousness before the Father and the angels. There is a record, their is a court. (Daniel 7:10, Rev. 3:5)
Why are there books,
why present names before God and the angels,
why have a court, since God already knows everything?

It so there will be NO SECRET as to why an individual is saved or lost. No lingering doubts in any mind as to the justice of God for not bringing a certain loved one into paradise.

Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: James Peterson] #164180
04/10/14 12:12 AM
04/10/14 12:12 AM
dedication  Online Content
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,610
Canada
Isaiah is simply telling us that God is far greater than any building that man built.

However the author of Hebrews makes a clear distinction in his choice of words.

When he is referring to the temple or sanctuary he uses the word "ta hagia" or it's variations.

when he is referring to a group of people like "the house of Israel" he uses a completely different word. "iokos"

And he says the "ts hagia" is in heaven. (9:24)

Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: dedication] #164188
04/10/14 09:51 AM
04/10/14 09:51 AM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: dedication
I agree -- "He was merely saying that [u]forgiveness by God should result in a change of character towards the Divine similitude; but if not, there's a price to pay". Justification (forgiven of all sin) releases us from the guilt and depressing weight of sin. Now we are to be dead to sin and alive in Christ. Growing in His grace to reflect His character more and more.

1. But how is it determined what "price" will be executed -- life or death? Who is to say how far the Holy Spirit has led a person? And how is it determined whose character is genuinely being changed towards the Divine similitude by the Holy Spirit and not a "dead works" program?

2. There are people who appear very pious and good and even loving and kind, whose characters have not been changed into a divine similitude. And there are people, who are covered by God's grace, but who others would probably condemn, yet whose characters are being refined into the Divine similitude.

3. God allowing sin to go on for thousands of years is for a purpose -- to show all intelligent created beings that God's law and His dealings with individuals is holy, just and good, and His ways are true, holy, and righteous. God isn't going to simply assign salvation to those He alone knows are His, while leaving the rest to eternal destruction.

4. The court is seated, the books are opened and Christ is presenting the names of those who have on his robe of righteousness before the Father and the angels. There is a record, their is a court. (Daniel 7:10, Rev. 3:5) Why are there books, why present names before God and the angels, why have a court, since God already knows everything? It so there will be NO SECRET as to why an individual is saved or lost. No lingering doubts in any mind as to the justice of God for not bringing a certain loved one into paradise.


1. Either you are sealed with the Holy Spirit or you're not.

2. The angels of God trust His judgement. Only SDA teach distrust in heaven.

3. See 1 and 2

4. SDA grossly misconstrue Dan. 7:9-14 to mean "investigation of saints"; but the angel of God said it was for "judgement against the beast" as with Nebuchadnezzar in Dan. 4:17, "This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men."

///

Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: dedication] #164189
04/10/14 10:01 AM
04/10/14 10:01 AM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Active Member 2019

Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: dedication
Isaiah is simply telling us that God is far greater than any building that man built.

However the author of Hebrews makes a clear distinction in his choice of words. When he is referring to the temple or sanctuary he uses the word "ta hagia" or it's variations. when he is referring to a group of people like "the house of Israel" he uses a completely different word. "iokos" And he says the "ts hagia" is in heaven. (9:24)

So why can't you say what word is translated "HOUSE" in Is. 66:1-4 and whether the original word denotes either a family or a building?

///

Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: James Peterson] #164196
04/10/14 06:12 PM
04/10/14 06:12 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
So why can't you say what word is translated "HOUSE" in Is. 66:1-4 and whether the original word denotes either a family or a building?

???
I'm not getting your point.
The word is bayith, and it can denote either a family (Numbers 12:7, Joshua 24:15, 1 Sam. 20:15, 1 Chron. 17:14, etc.) or a building (Lev. 14:35, Judges 11:31, 19:23, 2 Sam. 11:11, 1 Kings 21:2, 1 Chron. 28:6, Isa. 56:7, Eze. 44:7).
In Isa. 66:1 it refers to a building, in the same sense that Solomon says: "But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, the heavens and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You. How much less this house which I have built?" (1 Kings 8:27).

However, the term ta hagia is exclusively applied to the physical building of the sanctuary. And it's specifically said to be in heaven and to be the place where Jesus entered.

Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: James Peterson] #164197
04/10/14 06:42 PM
04/10/14 06:42 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
The angels of God trust His judgement. Only SDA teach distrust in heaven.

Only dictators think that their subjects don't deserve to know the reasons for the decisions they make.

Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: Rosangela] #164198
04/10/14 08:07 PM
04/10/14 08:07 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
NON-SDA
Active Member 2019

Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
???
I'm not getting your point.
The word is bayith, and it can denote either a family (Numbers 12:7, Joshua 24:15, 1 Sam. 20:15, 1 Chron. 17:14, etc.) or a building (Lev. 14:35, Judges 11:31, 19:23, 2 Sam. 11:11, 1 Kings 21:2, 1 Chron. 28:6, Isa. 56:7, Eze. 44:7).

In Isa. 66:1 it refers to a building, in the same sense that Solomon says: "But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, the heavens and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You. How much less this house which I have built?" (1 Kings 8:27).

That is true. In other words, the building is symbolic of the people, as "HOUSE" is "either a family or a building". This is what God meant when He said, "where is the place of My rest ... BUT on this one will I look ..." The message to the Laodiceans echoes the same sentiment, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me."

Here is how Hebrews concludes the idea, "Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, and having a High Priest over the HOUSE of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water." (Heb. 10:19-22)

It is evident that the Church is the heavenly sanctuary that was cleansed by the sprinkling of the "blood of Christ". Paul expresses it rather well in his letter to the Ephesians: "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish." (Eph. 5:25-27)


Originally Posted By: Rosangela
However, the term ta hagia is exclusively applied to the physical building of the sanctuary. And it's specifically said that it is in heaven.

See comment above.

///


Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: Rosangela] #164199
04/10/14 08:31 PM
04/10/14 08:31 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
NON-SDA
Active Member 2019

Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
The angels of God trust His judgement. Only SDA teach distrust in heaven.

Only dictators think that their subjects don't deserve to know the reasons for the decisions they make.

1 Pet. 1:10-12, "Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully ... To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven — things which angels desire to look into."

In much the same way that the prophets waited, so the angels of God bid their time until God revealed the things He spoke of long ago. And His angels trusted Him, and waited too.

Do you do a personal and private investigation of all new members in your congregation because you cannot just accept what the Pastor says about a newly baptized member, someone you don't know and with whom you must interact?

///

Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: James Peterson] #164201
04/10/14 10:31 PM
04/10/14 10:31 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
That is true. In other words, the building is symbolic of the people, as "HOUSE" is "either a family or a building".

"Either...or" doesn't mean "both things at the same time." The following passages refer to the people: Heb. 3:2; 3:5; 10:21; 1 Peter 4:17. The following passages refer to the building: Luke 6:4; 11:51.
Saying that the sanctuary is symbolic of the people doesn't work. At the Day of Atonement, atonement was made not just for the people, but also for the sanctuary - the building:

Lev 16:32 And the priest, who shall be anointed and who shall be consecrated to be priest in his father's stead, shall make the atonement, and shall put on the linen garments, even the holy garments:
Lev 16:33 and he shall make atonement for the holy sanctuary [the most holy place]; and he shall make atonement for the tent of meeting [the holy place] and for the altar; and he shall make atonement for the priests and for all the people of the assembly.

Quote:
It is evident that the Church is the heavenly sanctuary that was cleansed by the sprinkling of the "blood of Christ".

No, this is not evident. We have quoted Heb. 9:24 several times, but not once have you given a satisfactory explanation for it. Christ entered into the holy places not made with hands, into heaven itself.

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