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Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: Rick H] #164230
04/12/14 12:16 AM
04/12/14 12:16 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Scripture also says do not take away anything from scripture.
Quote:

Rev. 22:19 "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book."


Yes, it is only through Christ that we have forgiveness of sin! His death upon the cross is the cleansing blood that takes away our sin.
What you (James) quote about Christ's power to forgive and cleanse His people is correct.

I John 1:7 For the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin.

It is with grateful hearts that we recognize his cleansing power in our lives, and with praise we rejoice in that forgiveness made possible by His unspeakable loving gift of salvation.

But you are focusing on this to the exclusion of Christ's work in the heavenly sanctuary. You are "taking away" from scripture.

Now Christ Jesus is our High Priest! Our mediator! We need no other in our approach to God. Hebrews stresses the fact that our great High Priest is at the very right hand of God (chap. 1:3), in "heaven itself ... in the presence of God" (chap. 9:24).



There is much more to Christ's work of reconciling ALL THINGS.

Quote:
Heb. 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had its ordinances of divine service, and an earthly sanctuary.

9:11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12. Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Holy Places once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

9:24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;


While the sanctuary theme runs throughout Scripture, it is seen most clearly in Leviticus, Daniel, Hebrews, and Revelation.

Leviticus and Hebrews are concerned primarily with the priestly functions associated with the sanctuary, while Daniel and Revelation has the theme of judgment running throughout and taking us to the final restoration of all things.


The teaching of "judgment to come" has a firm base in Scripture. (Eccl. 12:14; Acts 24:25; Heb. 9:27; etc.). Those who look to Christ as their Savior and Lord, and follow His leading need not fear the judgment. The judgment is good news for Jesus promised:

Quote:
Rev. 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


Don't you want Christ to present your name before the Father and the holy angels and have your name forever in the book of life?

Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: dedication] #164258
04/13/14 03:21 AM
04/13/14 03:21 AM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
Scripture also says do not take away anything from scripture.
Quote:

Rev. 22:19 "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book."


Yes, it is only through Christ that we have forgiveness of sin! His death upon the cross is the cleansing blood that takes away our sin.
What you (James) quote about Christ's power to forgive and cleanse His people is correct.

I John 1:7 For the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin.

It is with grateful hearts that we recognize his cleansing power in our lives, and with praise we rejoice in that forgiveness made possible by His unspeakable loving gift of salvation.

But you are focusing on this to the exclusion of Christ's work in the heavenly sanctuary. You are "taking away" from scripture.

Now Christ Jesus is our High Priest! Our mediator! We need no other in our approach to God. Hebrews stresses the fact that our great High Priest is at the very right hand of God (chap. 1:3), in "heaven itself ... in the presence of God" (chap. 9:24).



There is much more to Christ's work of reconciling ALL THINGS.

Quote:
Heb. 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had its ordinances of divine service, and an earthly sanctuary.

9:11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12. Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Holy Places once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

9:24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;


While the sanctuary theme runs throughout Scripture, it is seen most clearly in Leviticus, Daniel, Hebrews, and Revelation.

Leviticus and Hebrews are concerned primarily with the priestly functions associated with the sanctuary, while Daniel and Revelation has the theme of judgment running throughout and taking us to the final restoration of all things.


The teaching of "judgment to come" has a firm base in Scripture. (Eccl. 12:14; Acts 24:25; Heb. 9:27; etc.). Those who look to Christ as their Savior and Lord, and follow His leading need not fear the judgment. The judgment is good news for Jesus promised:

Quote:
Rev. 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


Don't you want Christ to present your name before the Father and the holy angels and have your name forever in the book of life?





It says plainly in Dan. 8:14 , "Unto 2,300 'days', then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

1. How is the sanctuary cleansed by the High Priest? By him "sprinkling the blood of sacrifice" or by him investigating sins written down in books? See Lev. 16.

2. Does "shall be cleansed" mean begin to be cleansed, or be cleansed as in "It is finished"? See John 12:31-32.

3. Jesus is our High Priest before God in heaven much like you have a member of parliament who has the ears of the Prime Minister in the capital city. See Heb. 10:19-31

///

Last edited by James Peterson; 04/13/14 03:22 AM.
Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: James Peterson] #164270
04/13/14 06:27 AM
04/13/14 06:27 AM
dedication  Online Content
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1. It says plainly in Dan. 8:14 , "Unto 2,300 'days', then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

The word in Daniel 8:14 is
(#6663) “ntsadaq” from "tsadaq" which has a forensic meaning of “justify, vindicate, clear, made righteousness, cleanse" .
Forensic means it is connected with or used in courts of law.

The atonement has to do with the Law, as well as the Gospel. The atonement which the priest made for the people in connection with their daily ministration was different from that made on the tenth day of the seventh month.

In making the former, they went no further than into the Holy Place of the Sanctuary; carrying the sins of the people into the sanctuary, but on the day of Atonement the High Priest entered the Holy of Holies, to place the blood upon the mercy seat of the ark of the covenant under which lay the ten commandments.

The former was made for individuals, removing the sin from them and placing them in the sanctuary, the latter was for the whole nation of Israel collectively, a final removal of all sin from the temple after the blood was sprinkled on the mercy seat above the commandments. The former was made for the forgiveness of sins, the latter for blotting them out as the Priest placed them on the head of the azazel goat which was cast out into the wilderness. The former could be made at any time, the latter only on the tenth day of the seventh month near the end of the symbolic salvation "year".

The Jewish symbolic year began with spring festivals -- Passover (Christ is our Passover Lamb) Christ's death was once and for all not needing to be repeated. The Day of Atonement was at the end of the symbolic salvation "year". They are not the same event.

The sanctuary cleansed in the Leviticus account was the earthly sanctuary of the old covenant.
The Sanctuary to be cleansed at the end of the 2,300 day/years is the heavenly Sanctuary of the new covenant.

Heb. 9:22-23 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
It was therefore necessary that the patterns (the earthly sanctuary) of things in the heavens (the heavenly sanctuary) should be purified with these; (animal blood) but the heavenly things (the heavenly sanctuary) themselves with better sacrifices (Christ's blood) than these.
Moses received the patterns of the Sanctuary, built at Sinai from the Lord Himself.


2. Does "shall be cleansed" mean begin to be cleansed, or be cleansed as in "It is finished"? See John 12:31-32

At the end of the 2300 day/years the heavenly work typified by the day of atonement began.

When Jesus declared "It is finished" He was speaking of His tremendous sacrifice -- taking our sins upon Himself and dying upon the cross. (Typified by the Passover) At that point satan's defeat was assured, the plan of salvation was ratified, however the work of atonement is still going on -- we are still in this sinful old world, the final restitution has not yet taken place.

3. Jesus is our High Priest before God in heaven much like you have a member of parliament who has the ears of the Prime Minister in the capital city. See Heb. 10:19-31

Our heavenly High Priest is far more than some "member of parliament".
In that heavenly court (see Daniel 7:9-10) He is given the kingdom of this world (see Daniel 7:14)
Because of his death for our redemption He has the right to present the names of all Who have accepted His gift of salvation before the Father and the holy angels, as citizens of his kingdom who now will not need to die eternally but who will enjoy life everlasting with Him in His kingdom.

Quote:
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
3:12 " and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.

Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: dedication] #164300
04/14/14 07:41 PM
04/14/14 07:41 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: dedication
1. It says plainly in Dan. 8:14 , "Unto 2,300 'days', then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

The word in Daniel 8:14 is
(#6663) “ntsadaq” from "tsadaq" which has a forensic meaning of “justify, vindicate, clear, made righteousness, cleanse" .
Forensic means it is connected with or used in courts of law.

The atonement has to do with the Law, as well as the Gospel. The atonement which the priest made for the people in connection with their daily ministration was different from that made on the tenth day of the seventh month.

In making the former, they went no further than into the Holy Place of the Sanctuary; carrying the sins of the people into the sanctuary, but on the day of Atonement the High Priest entered the Holy of Holies, to place the blood upon the mercy seat of the ark of the covenant under which lay the ten commandments.

The former was made for individuals, removing the sin from them and placing them in the sanctuary, the latter was for the whole nation of Israel collectively, a final removal of all sin from the temple after the blood was sprinkled on the mercy seat above the commandments. The former was made for the forgiveness of sins, the latter for blotting them out as the Priest placed them on the head of the azazel goat which was cast out into the wilderness. The former could be made at any time, the latter only on the tenth day of the seventh month near the end of the symbolic salvation "year".

The Jewish symbolic year began with spring festivals -- Passover (Christ is our Passover Lamb) Christ's death was once and for all not needing to be repeated. The Day of Atonement was at the end of the symbolic salvation "year". They are not the same event.

The sanctuary cleansed in the Leviticus account was the earthly sanctuary of the old covenant.
The Sanctuary to be cleansed at the end of the 2,300 day/years is the heavenly Sanctuary of the new covenant.

Heb. 9:22-23 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
It was therefore necessary that the patterns (the earthly sanctuary) of things in the heavens (the heavenly sanctuary) should be purified with these; (animal blood) but the heavenly things (the heavenly sanctuary) themselves with better sacrifices (Christ's blood) than these.
Moses received the patterns of the Sanctuary, built at Sinai from the Lord Himself.


2. Does "shall be cleansed" mean begin to be cleansed, or be cleansed as in "It is finished"? See John 12:31-32

At the end of the 2300 day/years the heavenly work typified by the day of atonement began.

When Jesus declared "It is finished" He was speaking of His tremendous sacrifice -- taking our sins upon Himself and dying upon the cross. (Typified by the Passover) At that point satan's defeat was assured, the plan of salvation was ratified, however the work of atonement is still going on -- we are still in this sinful old world, the final restitution has not yet taken place.

3. Jesus is our High Priest before God in heaven much like you have a member of parliament who has the ears of the Prime Minister in the capital city. See Heb. 10:19-31

Our heavenly High Priest is far more than some "member of parliament".
In that heavenly court (see Daniel 7:9-10) He is given the kingdom of this world (see Daniel 7:14)
Because of his death for our redemption He has the right to present the names of all Who have accepted His gift of salvation before the Father and the holy angels, as citizens of his kingdom who now will not need to die eternally but who will enjoy life everlasting with Him in His kingdom.

Quote:
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
3:12 " and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.




Does sprinkling the blood of sacrifice on the veil, altars, vessels and floor of the sanctuary cleanse those articles and the building itself? NO; rather, the opposite. Therefore the act was symbolic of the day of forgiveness of the sin of the congregation, i.e. of the world, through sacrifice (a sacrifice that was even unto death).

Jesus Christ said, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him (i.e. afflict their soul in repentance at the foot of the cross) should not perish (i.e. not be cut off from the congregation of the saved) but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

John 3:16 tells of the fulfillment of Dan. 8:14 ("Unto 2,300 'days', then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." See Lev. 16) The gift of the Holy Spirit is tangible evidence of our sure salvation if we hold fast unto the end. See Heb. 3:4-6

///

Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: Rick H] #164302
04/15/14 01:36 PM
04/15/14 01:36 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Does sprinkling the blood of sacrifice on the veil, altars, vessels and floor of the sanctuary cleanse those articles and the building itself? NO; rather, the opposite. Therefore the act was symbolic of the day of forgiveness of the sin of the congregation, i.e. of the world, through sacrifice (a sacrifice that was even unto death).

???
Yes, it symbolically cleansed the building and its articles (Lev. 16:19). And please notice that the cleansing took place after the sacrifice had been offered.
But, since the service was symbolical, of course it pointed forward to a future sacrifice and a future cleansing.

Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: Rick H] #164309
04/15/14 04:10 PM
04/15/14 04:10 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Rom 8:34.

Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. Heb 7:25.

Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: Rosangela] #164311
04/15/14 05:38 PM
04/15/14 05:38 PM
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James Peterson  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
1. Yes, it symbolically cleansed the building and its articles (Lev. 16:19).

2. And please notice that the cleansing took place after the sacrifice had been offered. But, since the service was symbolical, of course it pointed forward to a future sacrifice and a future cleansing.

1. Indeed, SYMBOLICALLY, because it is impossible to cleanse anything with the blood of animals. Nevetheless, "the blood of Christ" (i.e. His Holy Spirit) cleanses us of all unrighteousness. This was accomplished through His sacrifice.

2. See #1; and it was fulfilled on Calvary. Jesus said, "Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” (John 12:31-32) OR don't you believe Jesus anymore?

///

Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: Mountain Man] #164312
04/15/14 05:47 PM
04/15/14 05:47 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Rom 8:34.

Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. Heb 7:25.

Even while Jesus was on earth, he was making intercession for the saints. Have you not read about Peter, before he promised to die with Christ, Jesus told him, "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers"?

This VERY work of intercession was always what Jesus was doing, except that after the resurrection, he was doing it as THE Messiah, the man appointed by God to represent the earth before Him.

///

Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: James Peterson] #164313
04/15/14 06:47 PM
04/15/14 06:47 PM
dedication  Online Content
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Originally Posted By: James Peterson

Does sprinkling the blood of sacrifice on the veil, altars, vessels and floor of the sanctuary cleanse those articles and the building itself? NO; rather, the opposite. Therefore the act was symbolic of the day of forgiveness of the sin of the congregation, i.e. of the world, through sacrifice (a sacrifice that was even unto death).

Jesus Christ said, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him (i.e. afflict their soul in repentance at the foot of the cross) should not perish (i.e. not be cut off from the congregation of the saved) but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

John 3:16 tells of the fulfillment of Dan. 8:14 ("Unto 2,300 'days', then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." See Lev. 16) The gift of the Holy Spirit is tangible evidence of our sure salvation if we hold fast unto the end. See Heb. 3:4-6

///


Indeed, there is a lot of symbolism in the sanctuary service. That's what I've been trying to tell you. Yet on one hand you wish to make the symbols extremely literal (to render them impossible to represent Christ's work) and on the other hand you wish to make it all symbolic of one event.

Indeed, without the shed blood of Christ on Calvary, there would be no cleansing from sin. It is ONLY thanks to Christ's death upon the cross that cleansing from sin has been made possible.
Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Christ died IN ORDER that He could deliver us from sin.
His death and resurrection enabled Him to deliver us from sin.
It enabled Him to enter the heavenly sanctuary as the officiating High Priest in the work of administrating salvation.

Also there is "mediation" as in people praying for each other, petitioning God's blessings upon others. Jesus did this for Peter and others before His death. We are to do this today.

But that is not the same as Christ's mediatorial work in the courts of heaven, where with His own blood He applies pardon to the sins of His people who come to Him confessing those sins (1John 1:9) and presents their names before the Father and the heavenly angels as citizens of His kingdom (Rev. 3:5,12) -- to inhabit the New Jerusalem on a newly recreated earth of the future. (Rev. 21:27)

The Bible plainly tells us that Christ entered into heavenly sanctuary there to appear before the Father for us. (Heb. 9:11,24) He will present the names of the overcomers before the Father and His angels and these names will remain in the book of Life. (Rev. 3:5)
Those whose names are in the Book of Life will inherit the New Earth kingdom (Rev. 21:27)

Daniel 7 gives us a picture of the scene of this last day work of Christ. There the court is seated and the books are opened. (Dan. 7:9-10) The Son of Man (Jesus our High Priest) is brought before the court (Dan. 7:14) To Him, as the representative of the human race, is given the kingdom and dominion of earth.
This scene take place AFTER western Rome divided into 10 horns, it takes place AFTER the little horn (papal Rome) does his 1260 years of persecuting God's people and changing God's law. (7:25)
The horn claims to be Christ's representative on earth! This is the judgment on the claims by humans who claim to Christ's followers.
Jesus presents the names of the OVERCOMERS before the Father and the angels (Rev. 3:5) and it matters not whether the earthly ecclesiastical powers condemn, if our names are permanently in the Book of Life, we will share in the inheritance of the New Earth!

Two outcomes of the judgment:
7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his (the horns) dominion, to consume and to destroy [it] unto the end.
7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Re: Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement? [Re: James Peterson] #164319
04/15/14 08:55 PM
04/15/14 08:55 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Brazil
Quote:
2. See #1; and it was fulfilled on Calvary. Jesus said, "Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” (John 12:31-32) OR don't you believe Jesus anymore?

I believe in Jesus not only as a sacrifice for my sins, but also as a High Priest to intercede for me before God when I sin.

Heb 5:1 For every high priest is taken from among the people and appointed to represent them before God, to offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins.

Heb 8:1 Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We have such a high priest, one who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven,
Heb 8:2 a minister in the sanctuary and the true tabernacle that the Lord, not man, set up.
Heb 8:3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. So this one too had to have something to offer.

Heb 7:21 "The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind, 'You are a priest forever'" ...
Heb 7:23 And the others who became priests were numerous, because death prevented them from continuing in office,
Heb 7:24 but he holds his priesthood permanently since he lives forever.
Heb 7:25 So he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

The priest offered the sacrifice on the altar in the courtyard, then went inside the sanctuary, into the presence of God, to intercede for the sinner, in order that the latter might receive forgiveness. This is what Jesus is doing now - interceding for us, on the basis of His sacrifice, made once for all, in order that we may be forgiven for the sins we commit today.

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"And He saith unto them, follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." Matt. 4:19
MARITIME 2ND ADVENT BELIEVERS ONLINE (FORMERLY MARITIME SDA ONLINE) CONSISTING MAINLY OF BOTH MEMBERS & FRIENDS
OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH,
INVITES OTHER MEMBERS & FRIENDS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO WISHES TO JOIN US!
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