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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #163540
03/18/14 04:52 PM
03/18/14 04:52 PM
APL  Offline
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Settling the truth that God never wanted the people to fight would allow a rational discussion of what transpired afterward. Without that fact to build on, there is no reason to discuss what happened afterward.

Your concept of God is not any different than jsot's. Face the truth, you believe God does bring fire down on people. If you are a sinner, your going to be tortured and burned, just as jsot is calling for.

Luke 9:54-55 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, will you that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? 55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, You know not what manner of spirit you are of.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #163545
03/19/14 12:35 AM
03/19/14 12:35 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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How do you (you personally) justify Jesus commanding killing criminals and combatants?

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #163567
03/19/14 11:49 AM
03/19/14 11:49 AM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: mm
How do you (you personally) justify Jesus commanding killing criminals and combatants?

There is a paper written by Ty Gibson which all ought to read. I have been sharing it with my friends this week as I believe it is one of the best summaries of what we Adventists should view about religion and God. I was thinking of starting a thread asking how the 3AM is righteousness by faith, and using this article as a base to launch it from. Now Daryl has posted a link to it. You can find it this tread: LIGHT BEARERS

The article speaks about “justification by faith is the third angel's message, ... in verity.” . It explains that the use of coercive force is not a principle of God government. “The inclination to control others is the core principle of the papal system.”

The idea that God actively punishes those that do not conform to His ideal, paints God as one who uses punitive force, controlling force, coercive force. This is pagan, it is papal. Until we understand this, I don't think we can't understand things like why God gave rules for divorce and other hard subjects.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #163571
03/19/14 01:40 PM
03/19/14 01:40 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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I read Ty's article. Loved it. But it doesn't answer why Jesus commanded killing criminals and combatants. You have yet to confess He did. Which may be why you prefer to discuss divorce. But ignoring the truth won't make it go away. People need answers. There are good reasons why Jesus commanded killing. Those reasons cannot include Jesus commanded sinning because sinners demand it. Jesus doesn't work that way. He saves people from their sins - not with or in their sins.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #163573
03/19/14 03:07 PM
03/19/14 03:07 PM
APL  Offline
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MM - do you accept that God does not use coercion as Ty brings out in his article?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #164194
04/10/14 03:45 PM
04/10/14 03:45 PM
Daryl  Online Canadian
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Found this in an old thread back in 2004 that only had this post in it:
Quote:

Does God Kill? Adventist Review columnist Leslie Kay offers cogent insights on balancing grace and justice. You can read her comments on the Review website at

http://archives.adventistreview.org/2004-1541/story2.html


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #164200
04/10/14 08:55 PM
04/10/14 08:55 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Daryl
Found this in an old thread back in 2004 that only had this post in it:
Quote:

Does God Kill? Adventist Review columnist Leslie Kay offers cogent insights on balancing grace and justice. You can read her comments on the Review website at

http://archives.adventistreview.org/2004-1541/story2.html

Do you accept as the author states that both sides of the issue are Adventists?
Do you accept as the author states that Jesus dies the death that a sinner will in the end?

The author states that she believes that God executed His Son? Do you believe that? The author provided no direct proof of this assertion however.

Perhaps one should read The Desire of Ages, the chapter titled, Gethsemane. Do see see God executing His Son in this chapter? Nope. In fact, God suffered with His Son! Jesus IS the answer. No where do we see God executing His Son. That should tell us something!


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #164215
04/11/14 03:52 PM
04/11/14 03:52 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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John
10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

No one or no thing killed Jesus. He laid down His own life and took up it again. The differences between what Jesus experienced on the cross and what the wicked will experience in the lake of fire is so radical as to render the comparisons nearly null and void.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #164218
04/11/14 04:08 PM
04/11/14 04:08 PM
APL  Offline
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Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
So MM disagrees with the article Daryl. MM - we don't learn anything about the death of a sinner from the death or Christ, is that a fair summary of your position?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #164228
04/11/14 10:33 PM
04/11/14 10:33 PM
Daryl  Online Canadian
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Here is what EGW has to say about this:
Quote:
Christ Magnifies the Law

The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable. Isaiah 42:21. {LHU 158.1}

Were the law understood apart from Christ, it would have a crushing power upon sinful men, blotting the sinner out of existence. But by understanding the law in connection with Christ, receiving Him by faith as his substitute and surety, man sees himself as a prisoner of hope. The truth as it is in Jesus is an acquaintance with the holy, just, and good law of God, as this law is elevated, and its immutability demonstrated, in Christ. He magnified the law, expanded its every precept, and in His obedience left man an example, that he also may meet its demands. . . . {LHU 158.2}

The agonies of the garden of Gethsemane, the insult, the mockery, the abuse, heaped upon God's dear Son, the horrors and ignominy of the Crucifixion, furnish sufficient and thrilling demonstrations that God's justice, when it punishes, does the work thoroughly. The fact that His own Son, the surety for man, was not spared is an argument that will stand to all eternity before saint and sinner, before the universe of God, to testify that He will not excuse the transgressor of His law. {LHU 158.3}

God is love. He has shown that love in the gift of His only begotten Son. Yet the love of God does not excuse sin. God does not excuse sin in Satan, in Adam, or in Cain, nor will He excuse sin in any of the children of men. The perverted nature of man may distort the love of God into an attribute of weakness; but light is shining from the cross of Calvary, that man may have correct views and hold theories that are not perverted. {LHU 158.4}

God has given His law for the regulation of the conduct of nations, of families, and of individuals. There is not one worker of wickedness, though his sin is the least and the most secret, that escapes the denunciation of that law. The whole work of the father of lies is recorded in the statute books of heaven; and those who lend themselves to the service of Satan, to present to men his lies by precept and practice, will receive according to their deeds. Every offense against God, however minute, is set down in the reckoning. And when the sword of justice is taken in hand, it will do the work that was done to the Divine Sufferer. Justice will strike; for God's hatred of sin is intense and overwhelming. {LHU 158.5}

The truth as it is in Jesus will teach most important lessons. It will show that the love of God is broad and deep; that it is infinite; and that in awarding the penalty to the disobedient, those who have made void God's law, it will be uncompromising. This is the love and justice of God combined. It reaches to the very depth of human woe and degradation, to lift up the fallen and oppressed who lay hold of the truth by repentance and faith in Jesus (Review and Herald, Feb. 8, 1898). {LHU 158.6}

The above quote speaks about the love and justice of God. And God's justice punishes.

Yes, God is love, but God is also just and also hates sin and will deal with the transgressors of His law who have rejected Him and His law.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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