APL, you accused me of believing something I do not. The onus is upon you to prove your allegations. Otherwise you are guilty of bearing false witness.

Also, you believe Jesus permits evil men and evil angels to cause death and destruction. Do you also believe evil men and evil angels are at liberty to cause death and destruction whenever and however they please - including killing innocent women and children?

1) MM - what is false in what I have said?

2) Have you read the book of Job recently?

Why are you hostile towards the idea of a God of love instead of a god of sickness, disease, and death?

Mr 11:13 And seeing from afar a fig tree having leaves, He went to see if perhaps He would find something on it. When He came to it, He found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs.
Mr 11:14 In response Jesus said to it, "Let no one eat fruit from you ever again." And His disciples heard it.

Mr 11:20 Now in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.


Mt 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
Mt 23:38 "See! Your house is left to you desolate;

APL, please apologize.

Kland, citing a withered fig tree as proof Jesus, while here in the flesh, withdrew His protection and permitted evil men and evil angels to kill innocent women and children misses the mark.

Also, saying, "Your house is left unto you desolate" as proof Jesus, while here in the flesh, withdrew His protection and permitted evil men and evil angels to kill innocent women and children is false.

Actually, the presence of God and the Holy Spirit was withdrawn from those who rejected Christ.

A lot more happened in Jerusalem, then just the armies of Rome coming to destroy the city.



Jerusalem was riddled with different factions fighting each other.

While I see APL taking things to far in denying that God will execute justice and put a final end to sins madness, yet it is true that the mess, and trouble, death, disease and all the other maladies of this world that sin has made is the result of sin --

God had to allow it or no one would know how bad sin really is, and thus they would believe satan's lie that life without God's law is good. The trouble, sickness, death, misery etc. are all a witness to how horrible things are when God's laws are disregarded.

Executing justice is doing the right thing. God does not need to kill anyone, because that is what sin does. Death is the result of sin, not God. The final end of sinners is not an execution, but a final giving up, letting go. Again, see GC36-37 and GC589. "God destroys no man". That quote is too clear to be misunderstood. Sin is the cause of all sickness, disease and death. ALL of it. For another view of the end of sin and sinners, see this thread with Four Readings from the Book of Transparency. It is Satan and sin that cause all the distress and death.

Please show what it is I need to apologize for, clarify your position.

You see MM - dedication has wrongly represented my view on numerous occasions, such as shortly above where she said I believe that the wicked will live in caves at the second coming, or as in her last post where she said that I say God will not put an end to the sin problem. Subtle digs such as that, even when I clearly state the opposite.

Perhaps MM, you should read what EGW wrote in Thoughs on the Mount of Blessing, page 32ff! I will quote so you don't have to take the time to look it up...

There was never one who walked among men more cruelly slandered than the Son of man. He was derided and mocked because of His unswerving obedience to the principles of God's holy law. They hated Him without a cause. Yet He stood calmly before His enemies, declaring that reproach is a part of the Christian's legacy, counseling His followers how to meet the arrows of malice, bidding them not to faint under persecution. {MB 32.1}

While slander may blacken the reputation, it cannot stain the character. That is in God's keeping. So long as we do not consent to sin, there is no power, whether human or satanic, that can bring a stain upon the soul. A man whose heart is stayed upon God is just the same in the hour of his most afflicting trials and most discouraging surroundings as when he was in prosperity, when the light and favor of God seemed to be upon him. His words, his motives, his actions, may be misrepresented and falsified, but he does not mind it, because he has greater interests at stake. Like Moses, he endures as "seeing Him who is invisible" (Hebrews 11:27); looking "not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen" (2 Corinthians 4:18). {MB 32.2}

Christ is acquainted with all that is misunderstood and misrepresented by men. His children can afford to wait in calm patience and trust, no matter how much maligned and despised; for nothing is secret that shall not be made manifest, and those who honor God shall be honored by Him in the presence of men and angels. {MB 32.3}

"When men shall revile you, and persecute you," said Jesus, "rejoice, and be exceeding glad." And He pointed His hearers to the prophets who had spoken in the name of the Lord, as "an example of suffering affliction, and of patience." James 5:10. Abel, the very first Christian of Adam's children, died a martyr. Enoch walked with God, and the world knew him not. Noah was mocked as a fanatic and an alarmist. "Others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment." "Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection." Hebrews 11:36, 35. {MB 33.1}

In every age God's chosen messengers have been reviled and persecuted, yet through their affliction the knowledge of God has been spread abroad. Every disciple of Christ is to step into the ranks and carry forward the same work, knowing that its foes can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth. God means that truth shall be brought to the front and become the subject of examination and discussion, even through the contempt placed upon it. The minds of the people must be agitated; every controversy, every reproach, every effort to restrict liberty of conscience, is God's means of awakening minds that otherwise might slumber. {MB 33.2}

How often this result has been seen in the history of God's messengers! When the noble and eloquent Stephen was stoned to death at the instigation of the Sanhedrin council, there was no loss to the cause of the gospel. The light of heaven that glorified his face, the divine compassion breathed in his dying prayer, were as a sharp arrow of conviction to the bigoted Sanhedrist who stood by, and Saul, the persecuting Pharisee, became a chosen vessel to bear the name of Christ before Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. And long afterward Paul the aged wrote from his prison house at Rome: "Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife: . . . not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds. . . . Notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretense, or in truth, Christ is preached." Philippians 1:15-18. Through Paul's imprisonment the gospel was spread abroad, and souls were won for Christ in the very palace of the Caesars. By the efforts of Satan to destroy it, the "incorruptible" seed of the word of God, "which liveth and abideth forever" (1 Peter 1:23), is sown in the hearts of men; through the reproach and persecution of His children the name of Christ is magnified and souls are saved. {MB 33.3}

Great is the reward in heaven of those who are witnesses for Christ through persecution and reproach. While the people are looking for earthly good, Jesus points them to a heavenly reward. But He does not place it all in the future life; it begins here. The Lord appeared of old time to Abraham and said, "I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward." Genesis 15:1. This is the reward of all who follow Christ. Jehovah Immanuel--He "in whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge," in whom dwells "all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Colossians 2:3, 9)--to be brought into sympathy with Him, to know Him, to possess Him, as the heart opens more and more to receive His attributes; to know His love and power, to possess the unsearchable riches of Christ, to comprehend more and more "what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; and to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fullness of God" (Ephesians 3:18, 19)--"this is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of Me, saith the Lord." Isaiah 54:17. {MB 34.1}

Now if I have misrepresented your view, please, clarify it.

APL: