I think most Adventists would agree with what I wrote, almost every word of which was a direct quote from Ellen White.

None will ever come to Christ, save those who respond to the drawing of the Father's love. But God is drawing all hearts unto Him, and only those who resist His drawing will refuse to come to Christ. (DA 387)

We have free will to resist God's drawing, or to refuse to come. This is not dependent upon being born again. In fact, this idea doesn't even make any sense, does it? That is, that we need to be converted before we can choose to refuse to come to Christ?

God loves freedom of choice! The respect of free will is a pillar of God's character. It contradicts the idea that God is arbitrary, which is what the lack of freedom preaches.


Tom

We can definitely resist God's drawing as you say. But can we respond to God's drawing without the regeneration of the Holy Spirit? People are normally drawn to God long before they are converted, and once converted they still have subsequent conversion experiences like Peter and Paul. Paul died daily. The drawing itself is regenerative. The carnal mind is not attracted to unselfish love. In otherwords being drawn to God is in itself a transformation that we cannot account for in our carnal state.

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Most Adventists would say we can choose who we serve. In that sense, they would agree with you that our wills are not in bondage. But even most Adventists would say our wills only allow us to make the choice between the two competing masters of the earth, Christ and Satan.

But actually, we're in much worse shape than that. We are born carnally minded and it is *only* through the regenerative word that we can choose our master. So the enmity God promised to place between us and Satan is not something that is natural to our fallen condition; it is something each one of us has to be infused with by the Holy Spirit before we can be born again and choose what is good.
Unquote.

Is it that bad?

I think that the matter of life and death, of saved and lost is dependent on our choice.

The principal idea is that God had saved humanity through Christ redemption and is working hard to maintain this salvation unto those who believe Christ, who put their faith in Christ, who wants to live after the Spirit, in order they might have a change of heart, from self centered, which is their nature, to unselfish heart that is fit for heaven.

What must be done is just to choose between to live for self or to live for God, knowing that if we lived for self we will end in hell, but if we lived for God we will end in heaven. But I admit that to choose between both is not that easy. To live for self is our nature, it just happen, but to live for God, we must have a strong will, a consistent one, a daily self denial, which is of course not that easy. And since what we can do of our self is just loving our selves, for our own goodness, then to live for God we need a supernatural power, we need the power of the Holy Spirit from the very beginning; from making a choice and following what we have chosen. It is a war between self and the Spirit, each of this power is trying to dominate our heart, or better self is dominating and the Spirit is trying to overtake its place as long as we cooperate with the will of the Spirit.

Therefore I agree that in order to make life more easy for those who choose to live for God, a new heart and a new mind is needed, which we get through the miracle of rebirth. The problem is if we have been baptized twice, would we go for another one, and another one again if we again crawl back to our old habit? When would it be over?

But thanks to God that the wages is just the same for those who work since 0600 am and those who work from 1700 pm, at the end of the day 1800 pm they all received the same wage, eternal life.

So it is our choice to be in heaven and live eternally, for from God’s part, he had saved humanity and he didn’t want that anyone should perish, but the choice is us, he just cooperate when we have made the choice and consistent to our choice till the end.

In his love

James S

If one cannot respond to the drawing of God until after one is converted, then the whole description of salvation presented here is wrong:

How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 176)

Notice the order is:
a.Drawing
b.Response
c.Repentance
d.Conversion

It is not:
a.Drawing
b.Conversion
c.Response
d.Repentance

Tom, you should slow down a little more. On the Atonement thread you told Rosangela that you spent a long time putting together a post summarizing her view. But she said that your summary did not at all represent her postion. The same thing is happening here.

Dedication, what do you think? (Are you willing to disclose your sex. That would allow us to use pronouns when referring to you. Actually, maybe you can just suggest the pronoun and we don't have to know whether we have it is right. I'm guessing you're a male by your style.)

James, don't get me wrong, we do have a choice. But I'm saying that we can't exercise our wills to do make a single right choice without divine help, converted or unconverted. And unconverted people are often, some even routinely, empowered by the Holy Spirit to do right.

Mark, you asked?

Quote:

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But can we respond to God's drawing without the regeneration of the Holy Spirit?

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If we cannot respond to God's drawing without the regeneration of the Holy Spirit, then the regeneration of the Holy Spirit must preceed our response. Wouldn't you say this is a logical conclusion of what you asserted (in the form of a rhetorical question)? Most people mean by "regeneration of the Holy Spirit" being born again, or converted. Did you have something else in mind?

If you disagree with something I wrote, provide evidence for why you think so. Simply asserting something without any reason or evidence for the assertion is gratuitous.

I spend a great deal of time putting the post responding to Rosangela together, and can back up every single point I made with direct quotes from Rosangela, taken in context. If you wish to discuss this further, I would be happy to do so.

You wrote, "Tom, you should slow down a little more." What was your intent in writing this?

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How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live.
Unquote.

At Moses time; Just look and you are healed. Very easy!

Would it be the same now for us?

To whom we should look so that we may live? To Christ? We can’t look at Him, he is in heaven.

What we can look at, which is easy, is the world, the glitter of the world and the passions of the world.

We can’t say, look at Christ and you will live.

We must imagine, we must concentrate, we must fight, etc. etc.

That is not easy!

I wonder if indeed we have a great deal of effort in saving our selves. “"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;…………………….”

In His love

James S

In my last post I've explained that the Holy Spirit works and gives regenerative power to the unconverted. So there is no mistaking my meaning, I'm saying that the Spirit can regenerate a person in a limited sense without converting him.

James, you've made an important point. Salvation is not like rolling off a log. It is more like swimming upstream against a powerful current of sin. But there are resting places along the way, and the journey, full of perils, is also full of rewards. The struggle itself is a great blessing. The great bolders and dams that prevent our progress, once overcome place us higher and closer to our goal. At the end of the journey we should be able to say with no little gratitude and satisfaction, 'I have fought a good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith.'

Speaking of faith John, (btw, thanks it's good to be back) I'm suggesting that faith is a divine gift that empowers the will. It is the point of fusion between the will of man and the will of God.