APL, I'm not at all surprised you didn't answer my questions or address my comment. Too bad. So sad. The point remains - You believe Jesus abandons innocent people to the ravages of nature, evil men, and evil angels. You regularly cite Job as proof. You might as well include the missionaries who are murdered abroad.

Do you understand freedom?

For the sake of argument, let's say that's true (It's not, but let's presume it is).

And the alternative you believe is .... what?
That Jesus doesn't leave and forsake people,
That Jesus doesn't abandon innocent people to the ravages of nature, evil men, and evil angels,
That Jesus doesn't say Love me or I'll leave and forsake you ---
But that He remains by the people to kill them, directly and intentionally tortures innocent people, and that He says Love me or I'll kill you?


Is that what you are saying? And that APL, myself, and others need to change our view of Jesus and hold a more hostile view of Him?

If not, what are you saying?

APL, yes. We are free to believe or disbelieve. You believe if we disbelieve, Jesus will abandon us to death and destruction. You also believe if we believe, Jesus will abandon us to death and destruction.

Not true? What's not true?

The following text that was brought to my attention in this morning's IIW Canada telecast reminded me of this thread:

God told Noah that He "will destroy them", that "the end of all flesh is come before" Him.

So, with the exception of Noah and his family, who destroyed them? The answer is: God destroyed them.

Some unbelievers in the truth might say that God's promise was amiss. He didn't mean what He said. Then again, that is too unambiguously against the scripture, so they will couch those words a little in some ambiguities and vagaries so that it appears more like....when God said "I" He really meant He would just withdraw His protection and let Satan do the dirty deed (as if cleaning the world with the awesome cleansing power of "water" constitutes a "dirty" deed).

Unbelievers are left without a good, rational excuse for not accepting the truth. The Bible is plain. Misunderstanding it in situations like this must be done purposefully and intentionally. It only increases one's guilt when the truth is rejected in such a situation as involves intentional ignorance of it.

I hope some here are listening to the Holy Spirit speaking through the inspired Word.

Satan must be artful to make his deceptions appear to be truths. He is forced to use ambiguities, vagaries, mysticisms, doubtings and disputings. God speaks boldly, plainly, and unambiguously on all fundamental points of doctrine. His laws are so clear that none need make a mistake. The punishment for breaking those laws, therefore, is just. It would not be justice to punish someone who was ignorant and who had had no opportunity of learning or accepting the truth. This is why Paul says, in effect, there is no sin without law. God is just, and His punishment is just. His reward is not just, but it is merciful and gracious. For this, the redeemed will praise Him for eternity.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

The Bible means what it means, not what is says.

Job 2:3 And the LORD said to Satan, Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that fears God, and eschews evil? and still he holds fast his integrity, although you moved me against him, to destroy him without cause.

There you have it!! God was moved against Job to destroy him and his family.

Numbers 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

There you have it!! God sent fiery serpents. Clear right?

It was generally believed by the Jews that sin is punished in this life. Every affliction was regarded as the penalty of some wrongdoing, either of the sufferer himself or of his parents. It is true that all suffering results from the transgression of God's law, but this truth had become perverted. Satan, the author of sin and all its results, had led men to look upon disease and death as proceeding from God,--as punishment arbitrarily inflicted on account of sin. Hence one upon whom some great affliction or calamity had fallen had the additional burden of being regarded as a great sinner. {DA 471.1}

Thus the way was prepared for the Jews to reject Jesus. He who "hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows" was looked upon by the Jews as "stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted;" and they hid their faces from Him. Isaiah 53:4, 3. {DA 471.2}

God had given a lesson designed to prevent this. The history of Job had shown that suffering is inflicted by Satan, and is overruled by God for purposes of mercy. But Israel did not understand the lesson. The same error for which God had reproved the friends of Job was repeated by the Jews in their rejection of Christ. {DA 471.3}

The same error is being repeated today.

Moses faithfully set before the people their great sin. It was God's power alone that had preserved them in "that great and terrible wilderness, wherein were fiery serpents, and scorpions, and drought, where there was no water." Deuteronomy 8:15. Every day of their travels they had been kept by a miracle of divine mercy. In all the way of God's leading they had found water to refresh the thirsty, bread from heaven to satisfy their hunger, and peace and safety under the shadowy cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night. Angels had ministered to them as they climbed the rocky heights or threaded the rugged paths of the wilderness. Notwithstanding the hardships they had endured, there was not a feeble one in all their ranks. Their feet had not swollen in their long journeys, neither had their clothes grown old. God had subdued before them the fierce beasts of prey and the venomous reptiles of the forest and the desert. If with all these tokens of His love the people still continued to complain, the Lord would withdraw His protection until they should be led to appreciate His merciful care, and return to Him with repentance and humiliation. {PP 428.3}

Because they had been shielded by divine power they had not realized the countless dangers by which they were continually surrounded. In their ingratitude and unbelief they had anticipated death, and now the Lord permitted death to come upon them. The poisonous serpents that infested the wilderness were called fiery serpents, on account of the terrible effects produced by their sting, it causing violent inflammation and speedy death. As the protecting hand of God was removed from Israel, great numbers of the people were attacked by these venomous creatures. {PP 429.1}

Destruction comes when we reject God and because of freedom, God removes His protection just as he said He will.

Satan works through the elements also to garner his harvest of unprepared souls. He has studied the secrets of the laboratories of nature, and he uses all his power to control the elements as far as God allows. When he was suffered to afflict Job, how quickly flocks and herds, servants, houses, children, were swept away, one trouble succeeding another as in a moment. It is God that shields His creatures and hedges them in from the power of the destroyer. But the Christian world have shown contempt for the law of Jehovah; and the Lord will do just what He has declared that He would--He will withdraw His blessings from the earth and remove His protecting care from those who are rebelling against His law and teaching and forcing others to do the same. Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. He will favor and prosper some in order to further his own designs, and he will bring trouble upon others and lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them. {GC 589.2}

The Bible means what it means, not necessarily what it says. EGW is clear - God destroys no man. Those that are destroyed, destroy themselves.

Wow. Interesting. You are on very shaky ground, APL. You would use your understanding of Ellen White to contradict her own understanding and doctrine. You would use Ellen White to refute the Bible. You would teach that the Bible does not mean what it says!

APL, I beg you to consider the distance which you have traveled away from the Bible. To say that the Bible does not mean what it says, when Heaven tells us otherwise, is error. It is the only justification you can make for your unbiblical views.

Mrs. White tells us the Bible means what it says. No, this is not Mrs. White saying it. This is a heavenly messenger, an angel, whom she is quoting. All of the quote below, save for the references and for the italicized portion, is a direct quote of the angel from Heaven.



Twist the angel's words at your own eternal peril.

In fact, to claim that the Bible does NOT mean what it says is to call the Bible a foolish book. Why do I say this? Look at the significance of not meaning what one says, as portrayed by Mrs. White, in the following message.



Blessings,

Green Cochoa.