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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16443
08/04/06 01:14 PM
08/04/06 01:14 PM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2020
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Joined: Sep 2001
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USA
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In my last post I said faith is the point of fusion between the will of God and the will of man. That is probably a bit inaccurate. A better statement would be to say that faith is the motive force that makes the fusion between the will of God and the will of man possible. The apostle says faith is the victory that overcomes the world. The victory is referring to the battle that Christ won for us. So 'our' faith is the faith of Christ, a gift given to 'us'.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16444
08/04/06 02:18 PM
08/04/06 02:18 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Quote:
I'm saying that the Spirit can regenerate a person in a limited sense without converting him.
This is a very unusual use of the term, one I don't think I've ever seen before. Webster's defines is as "spiritually reborn or converted."
This is both the dictionary definition of the word, and the way I've always seen the word used. If you are going to use a word to mean something different than its normal usage, I think it would be a good idea to make that very clear.
If your point is that we cannot be drawn to God apart from the Holy Spirit, and that the drawing itself is for the purpose of healing, and has a healing effect upon the person being drawn, I'm in complete agreement with that point. In fact, I'm so much in agreement with it (as it seems to be exactly what I've been saying) I'm curious as to what we are disagreeing about.
Let me ask the question this way. From the Ellen White quote we see the following steps:
a.The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God to everyone. b.That love draws everyone. c.Unless one resists, one will respond and be saved.
Two questions: 1.Do you agree that I have accurately summarized the EGW quote? Or would you suggest another way of summarizing it? 2.Is this summary how you perceive things to be working? Or is there something missing, or out of order in the explanation?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16445
08/04/06 02:25 PM
08/04/06 02:25 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Quote:
The drawing itself is regenerative. The carnal mind is not attracted to unselfish love. In otherwords being drawn to God is in itself a transformation that we cannot account for in our carnal state.
It appears to me that you are saying here that a person cannot be drawn without God doing something to the person first, because unless God did something to him, he wouldn't be attracted. This seems very similar to the argument Calvinists use for the "T" in "Tulip." Also the "i".
That is, the Calvinistic argument is as follows:
a.Of himself, man is totally depraved, with a will in bondage, so that he cannot respond to the grace of God. ("T" = "Total depravity")
b.God must unilaterally operate upon man in such a fashion that he is able to respond, and it is a sure thing that man will respond once God does this, because His grace is irresistable. ("I" = "Irresitable grace")
It seems to me certain that you are suggesting "a" is true. I'm not sure about b. You might be saying that God must unilaterally operate upon man in such a fashion that he is able to respond, but not that man must respond after God's unilateral action.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16446
08/04/06 02:26 PM
08/04/06 02:26 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
Speaking of faith John, (btw, thanks it's good to be back) I'm suggesting that faith is a divine gift that empowers the will. It is the point of fusion between the will of man and the will of God.
I like that: It is the point of fusion between the will of man and the will of God.
The question: is faith a universal divine gift, and the misplacement of it through sin; so that salvation is to bring it back in its proper place; or is faith a selective divine gift, and only those who get it, benefit?
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16447
08/04/06 02:47 PM
08/04/06 02:47 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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When we speak of "faith," what are we meaning?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16448
08/05/06 04:16 AM
08/05/06 04:16 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Quote:
When we speak of "faith," what are we meaning?
Faith is not a belief. “Faith” defines the source of our lives. So yes it is the point of fusion between the will of man and the will of God. Faith is the door by which we let God in, and keep all other out. Faith determines the source or input of our life. Faith is also the means we sever from the flesh and the old man as source.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16449
08/05/06 11:51 AM
08/05/06 11:51 AM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2020
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My view of faith closely agrees with John's definition as to the *role* of faith in man. Regarding the *source* of faith, it's origin is divine. The saints have the 'faith of Jesus': Quote:
Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Rev. 14:12
Does the text mean that the faith of the saints only immitates the faith of Christ, or does it mean that their faith proceeds directly from the ministry and priesthood of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary? It includes both, but it especially means the latter. Through the intercession of Christ grace and spiritual life is infused into our veins, His blood becomes ours, His life ours, and this alone makes it possible for us to submit our wills to God.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16450
08/05/06 02:28 PM
08/05/06 02:28 PM
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Good points and well said Mark.
The Faith I described, is ‘faith’ as the faculty in man. Every man has this faculty. But faith as in its placement and actual allegiance has been subverted in sin. Sin placed faith in self, and thus the will became subject to self, and the concept of faith was changed to beliefs.
The ‘faith of Jesus’ is a very vital concept and the heart of the gospel. Without it there is no salvation. It is the ‘faith of Jesus’ as in him being the author and finisher of our faith. So it is not a faith of man’s concept. It is not a faith of beliefs. It is the faith by which Christ has made his Father his source. This is a spiritual battle, and it cannot be fought by imitation; it is a genuine transaction in which man is transacting and Christ is ministering his spirit of faith. It is not something done for us; it is worked in us in an active transaction. Wherever the faith of the Son of God is, there is the Father also.
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him that is of the faith of Jesus. Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16451
08/05/06 02:32 PM
08/05/06 02:32 PM
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Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16452
08/05/06 02:51 PM
08/05/06 02:51 PM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2020
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Luther, writing to Duke Charles of Savoy in about 1524, one of the most influential of the French royalty and uncle to the king of France, Francis I, describes faith in the following way: Quote:
We believe that the commencement of religion and the sum of Christianity is faith in Christ, who by His blood alone, and not by our works, made atonement for sin and put an end to the dominion of death. We believe that this faith is a gift of God and that it is created by the Holy Ghost in our hearts and not found by our own labours. For faith is a living thing which spiritually begetteth the man and maketh him a new creature.
Further on in his letter to the duke, Luther goes on to say that a person thus regenerated will do good works as naturally as a good tree bears good fruit.
Notice though Luther's statement that faith is not 'found by our own labours'. The scripture agrees:
Quote:
1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
The above passage, in the simple eloquence of the beloved John, stikes the perfect balance. It shows that man must receive Christ, that there is a choice to be made and the will, once awakened and empowered must act. But the motive force is supplied not by the will of the flesh nor the will of man, but of God.
God draws and enlightens every man by the regeneration of the Holy Spirit. Those who respond are saved. Those who do not are what inspiration refers to as the vessels of dishonour or wrath. The election doctrine is essential to preserve the role of God in salvation. It will come to be better understood at the end by the final generation because it illuminates the central focus of the church at the end - Christ our Righteousness - and it will be instrumental in, as Ellen White puts it, 'laying the glory of man in the dust'. It will help to show that our wills are depraved and only by the regeneration of the Holy Spirit can we choose right. It is only through the election doctrine that the proper credit belonging to Christ for our salvation can be fully understood - how any why His is our rightousness.
When I was in my twenties, for a some years after my conversion in my teens, I used to say that before being converted I had made a god out of a career in business, but it wasn't too long before I was convinced that the world only had vanities to offer me even if I was fabulously successful. I blush now looking back at the explanation I used to give of my conversion because I attributed my thought process to my own rationality. What really happened was that the Holy Spirit, little by little regenerated my mind so that I became capabale of seeing the vanity of the world and eventually I yielded to Him.
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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