Tom, regarding the will of man and the extent of depravity that is native to us, not having studied Calvinism, I’m not aware of what Calvinists teach regarding ‘total depravity’. I can say though that in the bible, man is depraved and not able to choose or appreciate good in his natural state. ‘The [human] heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked; who can know it.’ Jer 17:9. The answer to that last question is 'noone can know it without the regeneration of the Spirit.'

Charles Wesley who you’ve been correctly referring to as the inspiration for much of Adventist thinking on the role of the will offers the following thoughts in his well known hymn, Jesus Lover of My Soul. The third verse says:

“Just and holy is thy name,
I am all unrighteousness;
Vile and full of sin I am,
Thou art full of truth and grace.”

I was a Calvinist before becoming an Adventist. I learned Arminian theology from Adventistism. It's really bizarre for me to see the very things I "unlearned" being repeated.

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Those who do not are what inspiration refers to as the vessels of dishonour or wrath.

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Were they vessled of dishonor or wrath before or after they refused to be drawn?

You disagree with Calvinism in that you are stating that all are drawn. Calvinists teach that only the elect are drawn, and noone can resist the drawing. You seem to be suggesting (please correct me if this is wrong) that all are drawn, but only those whom God has chosen to respond will do so.

There are probably many areas I differ with Calvinism on. Another one would be irresistible grace. If grace could not be resisted, it would not be grace, it would be force. Grace is gracious, it doesn't force.

From the writers I've read that are outside of Adventism, I'm probably closest to Luther on atonement/salvation, the will vs. the election.

To answer whether only those whom God as chosen to respond will do so, I'm saying that it is true that man's response is essential and that there is an essential role for the will. But I'm also saying that those who are finally saved at the end of their probation are in the Bible called the elect. The two ideas, the first and the second, appear to be in tension but it's our limited understanding that is the problem. One of the problems is that we place far too much confidence in what the unaided will is able to accomplish. In scripture the will can do nothing unaided. It is equally true though, the will of man must have its place in the plan of salvation. At the end of the day, the election gives God all the credit for our salvation notwithstanding our choice to respond positively.

This is likely another area I differ with Calvinism on. We don’t know who in the church is saved and unsaved, so, with few exceptions like the apostles and prophets, we don’t know who is elect. If our hearts are right with God though, we can have confidence that we are elected now. If we reject the grace of God in the future we will loose that confidence or our confidence will be replaced with presumption. That may be another departure from Calvinism. But my personal testimony is I believe that I am elected by grace and as are all believers. Still, our work is to ‘make our calling and election sure.’ So there is a clear duty that devolves on us in the plan of salvation, but all of the credit for our salvation, through the doctrine of the election returns to God.

I think the credit business falls far short of the true glory given to God by simply receiving him, the source of our lives by faith.

Everyone agrees that those who are saved at the end are the elect. There's no disagreement on that. There's also no tension in the two factors you cited, that there is an essential role for the will, and those who choose Christ will be elect. What you are enunciating here is not Luther's position, but Arminius's.

Calvinist's teach that God predestines man on the basis of His will, not His foreknowledge. Arminianists teach that God predesinates man on the basis of his foreknowledge.

Calvinist's teach that saving grace is given only to the elect. Only the elect have either the ability or the desire to be saved. Arminianists teach that saving grace has been given to all men, so that all have the ability to be saved, if they so choose.

Calvinist's teach that the free will gospel is false; that is, they are opposed to the idea that our free will play any part whatsoever in our salvation. If it did, then salvation would not be 100% a free gift of God, from grace. Arminianists teach that the gift has been given to all men, but that one must choose to accept the gift in order to be saved.

Here are some questions which may help to define things:

1.On what basis does God predestinate the elect?
2.How many does God predestinate to be elect?
3.How do the elect become elect?
4.Does God choose some to be saved and others to be lost, on some other basis than their decision to respond to the Gospel?

The way to heaven.

To be in heaven some one needs to have an unselfish heart, which is his fitness for heaven. He needs to have a pure heart, free of self seeking, to see God and live with Him through eternity.

To have an unselfish heart some one needs to live in self denial under the leading of the Spirit.

To deny self some one needs a new heart, a new unselfish heart in exchange of his self seeking heart.

To receive a new unselfish heart some one needs to be converted first through baptism.

To be converted some one needs to repent from his sinful way.

To repent some one needs Jesus.

To need Jesus some one needs to put his faith in Christ.

To have faith in Christ some one needs to hear the Gospel first, understand it and accept it.


In all of these process what is our part?

None? Then we are saved because God did it for us (elected). Take it easy man, do what you will, because it is God who decide you to be saved or to be lost. Don’t bother about your life style, if you are elected, you will become good and righteous one day.

If there is any, then it depends to us, not dependent on God’s election.

In His love

James S.

Tom wrote:

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There's also no tension in the two factors you cited, that there is an essential role for the will, and those who choose Christ will be elect. What you are enunciating here is not Luther's position, but Arminius's.

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I'm saying the election is according to the will of God, not the foreknowledge of God. That is where the tension is. The will of God and the will of man appear to be in tension largely because of our incorrect view of the role of man's will.

James, have another look at what I said regarding the role of the will. The role of the will is not as much the determining factor in salvation as most Adventists think, but notice that I've said it is still essential; that we have to make our calling and election sure. Grace is the determining factor. It arouses us to our need and empowers us to repond. The will is required to act at this point but it can only do so with the ongoing transformation and aid of the Holy Spirit. Again, the first part of John 1 strikes the perfect balance. The new birth is not according to the will of the flesh or the will of man, but by the will of God.

Tom you quoted me and wrote:

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"It arouses us to our need and empowers us to respond. The will is required to act at this point but it can only do so with the ongoing transformation and aid of the Holy Spirit."





I don't know any Adventists that disagree with this.

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That statement of mine was in the context of the main idea I’m presenting – the human will is depraved. I wish that most Adventists saw that our wills are depraved, but it doesn’t appear to be that way.


In the post just before you quoted Waggoner:

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Man's will has been forever set free, and God Himself will not presume to interfere with it. He holds the choice and will of each individual sacred. He will not carry out His own purpose contrary to man's will. His will is to give man whatever man decides will best please him. So He sets before man life and death, good and evil, and tells him to choose which he will have.

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In the same post you quoted someone from the UK who was writing about our fundamental beliefs saying that man’s will is free. Luther is right. There is no such thing in scripture as free will. We have choices to make, but no free will to make them. That is quite an overstatement by Waggoner – man’s will forever set free. Our will’s are in bondage and only can be used to submit ourselves to God when empowered by Him. Waggoner had a lot of good things to say about the human nature of Christ, the role of the law, and some of his material on justification, but as with all authors, we have to compare his work carefully with scripture. I'm actually quite surprised he would say something like that. It indicates to me that he may have taken the idea of corporate justification to mean that not only all men have been pardoned, but all men have been in some way rennovated by the death of Christ.