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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#164759
05/05/14 01:18 AM
05/05/14 01:18 AM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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James, the 144,000 will have sinful flesh after probation closes. Having it will not count as sin against them. So too, Jesus having sinful flesh did count as sin against Him. Nowhere in the Bible or the SOP does it say Jesus came in the likeness of sinless flesh. The "flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God." It can only tempt from within to sin. It is not a sin to be tempted. No one incurs guilt or corruption or contamination because they have sinful flesh. Jesus was tempted like a born-again believer - including being tempted from within via sinful flesh.
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#164760
05/05/14 01:30 AM
05/05/14 01:30 AM
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SDA Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
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Arnold, the fruit of abiding in Jesus is righteousness and true holiness. Not sin. Defiled, yes! Requiring the love and light of Jesus, yes! Sinful, no! "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Believers do what they do because God does what He does. The result is His good pleasure. Just because Jesus must mix in His love and light, it doesn't mean the original is sinful. Jesus is not in the business of making sin acceptable to God. No amount of His love and light can transform sin into something acceptable to God. Sin will perish with Satan in the lake of fire.
Again, I believe the fruit of Jesus abiding in the Father required no additional love and light for the simple fact He is God. I'll ignore the "Not sin. Defiled, yes!" part for now. Let's keep this simple: Jesus required nothing added. True believers need something added. That's different, not the same. Do you agree?
By God's grace, Arnold
1 John 5:11-13 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#164761
05/05/14 01:32 AM
05/05/14 01:32 AM
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Banned SDA Active Member 2015
3500+ Member
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
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James... Nowhere in the Bible or the SOP does it say Jesus came in the likeness of sinless flesh. THAT IS NOT TRUE! PAY ATTENTION!!!! "Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God... He (Jesus) was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden."{5BC 1128.4} If the first Adam was created without a taint of sin, that means he was sinless, in sinless flesh, and Jesus is the SECOND ADAM.
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: asygo]
#164762
05/05/14 01:33 AM
05/05/14 01:33 AM
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Banned SDA Active Member 2015
3500+ Member
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
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Let's keep this simple: Jesus required nothing added. True believers need something added. That's different, not the same. Do you agree? YES!
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#164763
05/05/14 01:48 AM
05/05/14 01:48 AM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Searched the word "same":
The business life of the Christian should be marked with the same purity that held sway in the workshop of the holy Nazarene. {HR, September 1, 1876 par. 9}
The principles which rule in heaven should rule upon earth, the same love that animates the angels, the same purity and holiness that reign in heaven, should, as far as possible, be reproduced upon earth. {FLB 65.6}
The same Spirit that dwelt in Christ as He imparted the instruction He was constantly receiving, is to be the source of their knowledge and the secret of their power in carrying on the Saviour's work in the world. {AA 365.1}
Divine love makes its most touching appeals to the heart when it calls upon us to manifest the same tender compassion that Christ manifested. {AA 550.2}
The same devotion, the same self-sacrifice, the same subjection to the claims of the word of God, that were manifest in Christ, must be seen in His servants. {COL 142.3}
You will feel for others the same deep love that Christ has felt for you. {COL 197.1}
Christ will impart to His messengers the same yearning love that He Himself has in seeking for the lost. {COL 235.3}
Beholding the beauty of His character, we shall be "changed into the same image from glory to glory." 2 Corinthians 3:18. {DA 83.5}
When we are born from above, the same mind will be in us that was in Jesus, the mind that led Him to humble Himself that we might be saved. {DA 330.4}
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#164764
05/05/14 01:52 AM
05/05/14 01:52 AM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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"Righteousness and true holiness" is the "same" in the sense it is not sinful. The fact the one requires additions and the other does not is different.
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#164765
05/05/14 02:03 AM
05/05/14 02:03 AM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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The character of the Christian is to be a reproduction of the character of Christ. The same love, the same grace, the same unselfish benevolence, seen in His life, is to characterize the lives of His followers. {OHC 198.6}
Those who keep God's commandments in truth will reveal the same love that Christ revealed for His Father and for His fellow men. {UL 126.3}
The character of the Christian is to be a reproduction of the character of Christ. The same love, the same grace, the same unselfish benevolence, that characterized the life of the Redeemer, are to characterize the lives of His followers. {ST, February 12, 1902 par. 10}
The obedience of Christ to His Father was the same obedience that is required of man. {OHC 48.3}
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#164773
05/05/14 01:24 PM
05/05/14 01:24 PM
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Banned SDA Active Member 2015
3500+ Member
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
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Mt Man can't you admit when you are wrong? I gave you direct proof that your statement was wrong and you skip right over it without missing a beat.
For the sake of being a Christian which requires complete honesty and grace, will you admit you were wrong about this?
"James... Nowhere in the Bible or the SOP does it say Jesus came in the likeness of sinless flesh."
If you cannot admit when you are wrong how can you be trusted?
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#164775
05/05/14 01:42 PM
05/05/14 01:42 PM
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Banned SDA Active Member 2015
3500+ Member
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
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When Mrs White says we need the "same" benevolence, love and grace it means we need HIS benevolence, love and grace. If He dwells in us those things will be manifested as well as truth and honesty.
"Father, I wish that they were IN ME like I am IN THEE".
You seem to think that Jesus was here of His own accord. I have not seen one mention of the work of the Father through Christ in any of your discourse which means you do not get the full picture.
“Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? He that hath seen me hath seen the Father, and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself; but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me; or else believe me for the very works’ sake. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask anything in my name, I will do it.”{ST May 7, 1896, par. 2}
Jesus didn't do the things He did on His own. The FATHER dwelt in Him. He wants us to have communion with HIS FATHER. All of the fruits of the Spirit come from THE FATHER.
The journey starts by believing, or having FAITH in Jesus but it develops into a divine relationship with His father.
All of the things you are try to say about Jesus, the He was in the sinful flesh of our fallen nature totally shames the truth.
The FATHER was in Him so it is IMPOSSIBLE for Christ to be in sinful flesh. Can't you see that?
He that eats MY FLESH and drinks MY BLOOD dwelleth IN ME!
You're saying He wants us to eat SINFUL FLESH! And if you cannot see how wrong you are after all this evidence then I stand proven correct that you are completely blind on this matter.
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#164777
05/05/14 04:23 PM
05/05/14 04:23 PM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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M: Nowhere in the Bible or the SOP does it say Jesus came in the likeness of sinless flesh.
J: THAT IS NOT TRUE! PAY ATTENTION!!!! "Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God... He (Jesus) was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden."{5BC 1128.4} If the first Adam was created without a taint of sin, that means he was sinless, in sinless flesh, and Jesus is the SECOND ADAM. Yes, Jesus is the second Adam. "His spiritual nature was free from every taint of sin." However, unlike Adam, He took upon His sinless nature our weak, fallen, sinful, suffering human nature, degraded and defiled by sin. He took humanity, with all its liabilities. He endured all the temptations wherewith man is beset. We have nothing to bear which He has not endured. He assumed human nature with its temptations. He felt the overwhelming tide of woe that deluged the world. He realized the strength of indulged appetite and of unholy passion that controlled the world. " In all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren." Hebrews 2:17. Not in some things, or most things, but "in all things". "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same". Hebrews 2:14. In doing this He took upon Himself the nature of weak, sinful humanity, and came to this world to battle with the powers of darkness. {2SAT 299.2}
It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man's nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. {DA 48.5}
Think of Christ's humiliation. He took upon himself fallen, suffering human nature, degraded and defiled by sin. He took our sorrows, bearing our grief and shame. He endured all the temptations wherewith man is beset. He united humanity with divinity: a divine spirit dwelt in a temple of flesh. He united himself with the temple. "The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us," because by so doing he could associate with the sinful, sorrowing sons and daughters of Adam. {YI, December 20, 1900 par. 7}
Many claim that it was impossible for Christ to be overcome by temptation. Then He could not have been placed in Adam's position; He could not have gained the victory that Adam failed to gain. If we have in any sense a more trying conflict than had Christ, then He would not be able to succor us. But our Saviour took humanity, with all its liabilities. He took the nature of man, with the possibility of yielding to temptation. We have nothing to bear which He has not endured. {DA 117.2}
The human nature of Christ is likened to ours, and suffering was more keenly felt by Him; for His spiritual nature was free from every taint of sin. {7ABC 449.7}
He took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature, that He might know how to succor those that are tempted. {MM 181.3}
He felt the overwhelming tide of woe that deluged the world. He realized the strength of indulged appetite and of unholy passion that controlled the world, which had brought upon man inexpressible suffering. {RH, August 4, 1874 par. 1} Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh as a born-again believer - not as a lost sinner. I have posted dozens of quotes on this thread that describe true, genuine, thorough converts. The description of Jesus' humanity is identical to that of born-again believers. The only difference between the two is the fact Jesus is also God. Here is yet one more example of how it is described in the SOP: We need not place the obedience of Christ by itself as something for which he was particularly adapted, because of his divine nature; for he stood before God as man's representative, and was tempted as man's substitute and surety. If Christ had a special power which it is not the privilege of a man to have, Satan would have made capital of this matter. But the work of Christ was to take from Satan his control of man, and he could do this only in a straightforward way. He came as a man, to be tempted as a man, rendering the obedience of a man. Christ rendered obedience to God, and overcame as humanity overcome. We are led to make wrong conclusions because of erroneous views of the nature of our Lord. To attribute to his nature a power that it is not possible for man to have in his conflicts with Satan, is to destroy the completeness of his humanity. The obedience of Christ to his Father was the same obedience that is required of man. Man cannot overcome Satan's temptations except as divine power works through humanity. The Lord Jesus came to our world, not to reveal what God in his own divine person could do, but what he could do through humanity. Through faith man is to be a partaker of the divine nature, and to overcome every temptation wherewith he is beset. It was the Majesty of heaven who became a man, who humbled himself to our human nature; it was he who was tempted in the wilderness and who endured the contradiction of sinners against himself. {ST, April 10, 1893 par. 3}
The love and justice of God, and also the immutability of His law, are made manifest by the Saviour's life, no less than by His death. He assumed human nature with its infirmities, its liabilities, its temptations. "Himself took our infirmities and bare our sicknesses." Matthew 8:17. "In all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren." Hebrews 2:17. He exercised in His own behalf no power which man can not exercise. As man, He met temptation, and overcame in the strength given Him of God. He gives us an example of perfect obedience. He has provided that we may become partakers of the divine nature and assures us that we may overcome as He overcame. His life testified that by the aid of the same divine power which Christ received it is possible for man to obey God's law. {BTS, February 1, 1908 par. 3}
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