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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #164738
05/04/14 03:35 PM
05/04/14 03:35 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Born-again believers duplicate Jesus' righteousness and true holiness while they are abiding in Him. ... They stand before God as did Jesus.
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Nevertheless, the righteous fruit of abiding in Jesus must be sweetened with the perfume of Jesus' blood and righteousness to be spotless and acceptable to our heavenly Father. Not because it is sinful.

Let's say I agree with your interpretation of 1SM 344 - that true believers' fruit is not sinful, but neither is it spotless and acceptable without Jesus adding His Blue Bonnet. You say that true believers "stand before God as did Jesus." If so, who added Blue Bonnet to Christ's good works? Who perfumed His righteous fruits so they could BECOME spotless and acceptable?


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #164739
05/04/14 04:01 PM
05/04/14 04:01 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: asygo
Let's say I agree with your interpretation of 1SM 344 - that true believers' fruit is not sinful, but neither is it spotless and acceptable without Jesus adding His Blue Bonnet. You say that true believers "stand before God as did Jesus." If so, who added Blue Bonnet to Christ's good works? Who perfumed His righteous fruits so they could BECOME spotless and acceptable?

This is called the plan of redemption.

John 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he has made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bore our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live to righteousness: by whose stripes you were healed.

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, [purged them from where?] sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

The law requires righteousness,--a righteous life, a perfect character; and this man has not to give. He cannot meet the claims of God's holy law. But Christ, coming to the earth as man, lived a holy life, and developed a perfect character. These He offers as a free gift to all who will receive them. His life stands for the life of men. Thus they have remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. More than this, Christ imbues men with the attributes of God. He builds up the human character after the similitude of the divine character, a goodly fabric of spiritual strength and beauty. Thus the very righteousness of the law is fulfilled in the believer in Christ. God can "be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." Romans 3:26. {DA 762.2}

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #164740
05/04/14 04:02 PM
05/04/14 04:02 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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The fruit Jesus produced while abiding in the Father ascended in spotless purity. It needed no additives to make it acceptable. It didn't have anything to do with the fact He never sinned. Believers live without sinning, too, while abiding in Jesus. I believe it is because He is God.

If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous. Christ's character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned. {SC 62.2}

More than this, Christ changes the heart. He abides in your heart by faith. You are to maintain this connection with Christ by faith and the continual surrender of your will to Him; and so long as you do this, He will work in you to will and to do according to His good pleasure. So you may say, "The life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me." Galatians 2:20. So Jesus said to His disciples, "It is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you." Matthew 10:20. Then with Christ working in you, you will manifest the same spirit and do the same good works --works of righteousness, obedience. {SC 62.3}

Yes, the same spirit, the same good works. Nevertheless, Jesus must add His light and love to make it acceptable to our heavenly Father.

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #164742
05/04/14 04:47 PM
05/04/14 04:47 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Did a short search on the phrase "acceptable to God". Although she doesn't always say so, the fruit of faith is acceptable to our heavenly Father only after Jesus mixes in His love and light.

Quote:
The silent, fervent prayer of the soul will rise like holy incense to the throne of grace and will be as acceptable to God as if offered in the sanctuary. {AH 212.4}

It is not the length of time we labor but our willingness and fidelity in the work that makes it acceptable to God. {COL 402.3}

As we thus contemplate heavenly themes, our faith and love will grow stronger, and our prayers will be more and more acceptable to God, because they will be more and more mixed with faith and love. {CE 57.2}

Repentance, true humility, a broken heart, and a contrite spirit, alone will be acceptable to God. {CS 153.1}

Physical and mental effort, wisely combined, will keep the whole man in a condition that makes him acceptable to God. {DG 162.3}

By the Spirit every sincere prayer is indited, and such prayer is acceptable to God. {DA 189.2}

Music is acceptable to God only when the heart is sanctified and made soft and holy by its facilities. {Ev 512.1}

Through faith in Him, Christ will make all our imperfect efforts acceptable to God. {FW 48.3}

All that man can do without Christ is polluted with selfishness and sin; but that which is wrought through faith is acceptable to God. {FW 94.1}

The incense, ascending with the prayers of Israel, represents the merits and intercession of Christ, His perfect righteousness, which through faith is imputed to His people, and which can alone make the worship of sinful beings acceptable to God. {FLB 197.4}

It is not the greatness of the gift that makes the offering acceptable to God; it is the purpose of the heart, the spirit of gratitude and love that it expresses. {FLB 245.5}

Neither prayer nor almsgiving has any virtue in itself to recommend the sinner to God; the grace of Christ, through His atoning sacrifice, can alone renew the heart and make our service acceptable to God. {AG 86.4}

But are good works of no real value? Is the sinner who commits sin every day with impunity, regarded of God with the same favor as the one who through faith in Christ tries to work in his integrity? The Scripture answers, "We are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." In His divine arrangement, through His unmerited favor, the Lord has ordained that good works shall be rewarded. We are accepted through Christ's merit alone; and the acts of mercy, the deeds of charity, which we perform, are the fruits of faith; and they become a blessing to us; for men are to be rewarded according to their works. It is the fragrance of the merit of Christ that makes our good works acceptable to God, and it is grace that enables us to do the works for which He rewards us. Our works in and of themselves have no merit. When we have done all that it is possible for us to do, we are to count ourselves as unprofitable servants. We deserve no thanks from God. We have only done what it was our duty to do, and our works could not have been performed in the strength of our own sinful natures. {AG 331.3}

It requires earnest efforts to present ourselves a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God. It takes the entire being, complete consecration, entire submission. There must be no chamber of the mind where Satan can hold sway, and carry out his devices. Self must be crucified. Sacrifices must be made that will seem like taking the very life-blood from the heart. {GW92 470.2}

In the lives of those who are partakers of the divine nature there is a crucifixion of the haughty, self-sufficient spirit that leads to self-exaltation. In its place the Spirit of Christ abides, and in the life the fruits of the Spirit appear. Having the mind of Christ, His followers reveal the graces of His character. Nothing short of this will make men acceptable to God. Nothing short of this will give them the pure, holy character that those must have who are admitted to heaven. As soon as a man puts on Christ, an evidence of the change wrought in him is seen in spirit and word and act. A heavenly atmosphere surrounds his soul; for Christ is abiding within. {LHU 301.4}

However complete may have been our consecration at conversion, it will avail us nothing unless it be renewed daily, but a consecration that embraces the actual present is fresh, genuine, and acceptable to God. {OFC 125.5}

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #164746
05/04/14 07:12 PM
05/04/14 07:12 PM
asygo  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
The fruit Jesus produced while abiding in the Father ascended in spotless purity. It needed no additives to make it acceptable.

But true believers' fruit needs additives. So they are NOT the same as Christ. One needs additives to be spotless, the other one is spotless as-is, so they CANNOT be the same. Agreed?


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #164749
05/04/14 08:50 PM
05/04/14 08:50 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Posts: 3,613
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Did a short search on the phrase "acceptable to God". Although she doesn't always say so, the fruit of faith is acceptable to our heavenly Father only after Jesus mixes in His love and light.


So how could that be if inside of Jesus had the old man sin rumbling around in His sinful flesh?

By your own words you say that our prayers are only acceptable by God if Jesus mixes in His love and light, but does that include His sinful torments of the flesh? That would seem to be a flawed example.

That would mean by dwelling in Christ we could never get rid of the sinful flesh because the perfect example also had sinful flesh so His level of perfection would be flawed, making it impossible to ever be perfected from sin which you say is demanded of.

You cant have it both ways.

Either Jesus had sinful flesh making His example imperfect or
He had unfallen flesh making His soul the perfect refuge to gain the perfect example.

I pledge my life to the latter example and He rewards me for doing so.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #164751
05/04/14 09:17 PM
05/04/14 09:17 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Southwest USA
No, they are the "same". Ellen White says so in explicit terms. There is another reason why the fruit Jesus bore needed no additives. I believe it is because Jesus is God.

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #164753
05/04/14 09:46 PM
05/04/14 09:46 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
No, they are the "same". Ellen White says so in explicit terms. There is another reason why the fruit Jesus bore needed no additives. I believe it is because Jesus is God.


But you said He came in the sinful flesh, how could He not need any spiritual additives if He was struggling with the old man sinful flesh?

The fact is He was in the flesh not OF the flesh.

How can He be God and have sinful desires that He needed to overcome? And since Jesus and the Father are "one" wouldn't that mean the Father would have those sinful desires?

The Father dwelt in the Son through the Holy Spirit. When we are in Christ like He was in the Father that over rules our sinful flesh, but how could He also be in the sinful flesh and have the Father in Him?


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #164756
05/04/14 11:12 PM
05/04/14 11:12 PM
asygo  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
No, they are the "same". Ellen White says so in explicit terms. There is another reason why the fruit Jesus bore needed no additives. I believe it is because Jesus is God.

We might not be in agreement on what "same" means.

Jesus prays, and it's spotless and acceptable. MM prays, and it's defiled and unacceptable. That's not the same.

It's the same problem I have with people who say Jesus had an identical nature as us except for ________. It's a use of "identical" with which I am not familiar.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #164758
05/05/14 01:13 AM
05/05/14 01:13 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Arnold, the fruit of abiding in Jesus is righteousness and true holiness. Not sin. Defiled, yes! Requiring the love and light of Jesus, yes! Sinful, no! "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Believers do what they do because God does what He does. The result is His good pleasure. Just because Jesus must mix in His love and light, it doesn't mean the original is sinful. Jesus is not in the business of making sin acceptable to God. No amount of His love and light can transform sin into something acceptable to God. Sin will perish with Satan in the lake of fire.

Again, I believe the fruit of Jesus abiding in the Father required no additional love and light for the simple fact He is God.

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