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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16473
08/07/06 06:13 PM
08/07/06 06:13 PM
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Ontario
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Quote:
I think; when we live for self, we have no free will, but when we live for God we do have a free will. In other word, when sin is my master I have no free will, but when God is my master, I do have a free will. When I am a slave to sin, I have no free will, but when I am a son of God, I do have a free will.
The question is, when does the change happen, from a slave of sin we become son of God? Who changed us? If God did change us, is personal salvation then not predestined?
Well in some ways that statement is meaningful, but in context of discussion here it is not clear.
When we live for self; when sin is the master, we still have a free will or we could never choose ‘to live for God’, and we would never find out that we have a problem living for God. What we do not have is the means by which to live for God. But when you choose God for your master, then you still have a free will, and you have the means by which to live his will.
So how do we change masters?
By faith!
What faith? Yes, but not a belief.
Faith is the door by which we (the will) determine our source or master. As long as our faith is in ourselves we are slave to sin. I would like us to note that religiousness and ardency has nothing to do with it. Paul was zealous and highly educated and trained in religion about God; knowing the scriptures, yet he had that very same problem. But that was not faith.
The will determines who we listen to by Faith. The will determines who our source is through faith. The will establishes who our master is by authorizing faith to only accept that which is from the Lord. So as we see the will obeys no one. The will rules empirically. It commands faith to its place. But that is where the power of the will ends. Past that, it can only enforce the position that faith has been put in. It cannot rule anything else contrary to faith.
In simple words, if we want to be a doctor, we must learn from a doctor.
If we want to be a son of God; we need to go to the Son of God, and learn of him.
And we cannot learn anything, except we will believe him who is instructing us.
One more thought: there can be a big difference in "living for God” and “God living in me”.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16474
08/08/06 10:48 AM
08/08/06 10:48 AM
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OP
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Quote:
85:4 Turn us, O God of our salvation, and cause thine anger toward us to cease.
85:5 Wilt thou be angry with us for ever? wilt thou draw out thine anger to all generations?
85:6 Wilt thou not revive us again: that thy people may rejoice in thee?
85:7 Show us thy mercy, O LORD, and grant us thy salvation. Psalms
One of the proofs of the election doctrine on an individual level is its parallel on the corporate level. In the cases of the great reform movements in Jewish history, the birth of Christianity and of the Protestant Reformation, we see in these movements the over-arching hand of God. Like the new birth in the individual, they are not born of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but by the will of God.
Quote:
A real work of reformation, prepared during many ages, is the work of the Holy Spirit. Before the appointed hour, the greatest geniuses and even the most faithful of God’s servants cannot produce it; but when the reforming time has come; when it is in God’s pleasure to renovate the affairs of the world, the divine life must clear a passage, and *it* is able to create of itself the humble instruments by which this life is communicated to the human race. Then, if men are silent, the very stones will cry out.
J H Merle D’Aubigne, History of the Protestant Reformation page 499.
This is quite contrary to most Adventist's thinking. Isn’t sincerity and fervent prayer enough to effect great transformations? But consider Isaiah and Jeremiah, next to Moses, possibly the two greatest of the prophets; men of prayer and faith, and yet unable to stem the tide of apostasy. And so I’ve quoted for you at the beginning of this post the corporate parallel from scripture of the election doctrine. In the Psalm, corporate revival is only possible when God removes his wrath from the corporate body.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16475
08/08/06 01:17 PM
08/08/06 01:17 PM
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85:4 Turn us, O God of our salvation, and cause thine anger toward us to cease.
Who is talking and why?
By what means are they talking?
Why do they want God?
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16476
08/08/06 01:51 PM
08/08/06 01:51 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Quote:
When we live for self; when sin is the master, we still have a free will or we could never choose ‘to live for God’, and we would never find out that we have a problem living for God. What we do not have is the means by which to live for God. But when you choose God for your master, then you still have a free will, and you have the means by which to live his will.
This, IMO, is very clear and well stated.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16477
08/08/06 01:57 PM
08/08/06 01:57 PM
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Mark, if corporate election is something that can teach us about individual election, isn't the lesson we learn that God's will can be thwarted?
Surely it wasn't God's plan that Israel should fail. He says all day long He waited for Israel with outstretched hands.
If the only thing that reformation depends upon is God's taking action, one wonders (I say this reverently) why God is so incompetent. Doesn't it make much more sense to understand that God is not willing that any should perish, that He is always working to save, to reform, but His purposes are counteracted by evil forces?
Consider, for example, the following statement:
An unwillingness to yield up preconceived opinions, and to accept this truth, lay at the foundation of a large share of the opposition manifested at Minneapolis against the Lord's message through Brethren {E.J.} Waggoner and {A.T.} Jones. By exciting that opposition Satan succeeded in shutting away from our people, in a great measure, the special power of the Holy Spirit that God longed to impart to them. The enemy prevented them from obtaining that efficiency which might have been theirs in carrying the truth to the world, as the apostles proclaimed it after the day of Pentecost. The light that is to lighten the whole earth with its glory was resisted, and by the action of our own brethren has been in a great degree kept away from the world. (1SM 234, 235)
This points out that God intended to do something (lighten the earth with glory through a message which He sent), but His purpose was counteracted by the work of angels and men.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16478
08/08/06 05:03 PM
08/08/06 05:03 PM
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Don't missunderstand me please on the importance of prayer in every revival. Just notice that no amount of prayer will bring revival corporately unless the revival is ordained of God. We can't choose when that happens either individually or corporately. It is the work of God. I've given proof of this in the case of Isreal's apostacy. The prayers of the prophets and the pious ones could not prevent it. God allowed them to choose evil, true, but He also did not overrule for good. There are the two sides. Which is the deciding factor? Let me give you an example now of a revival the succeeded - Mount Carmel. Who does Elijah credit with the great transformation the was lauched that day - the choice of the people, or the work of God? Quote:
18:36 And it came to pass at [the time of] the offering of the [evening] sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou [art] God in Israel, and [that] I [am] thy servant, and [that] I have done all these things at thy word.
18:37 Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou [art] the LORD God, and [that] thou hast turned their heart back again.
Was it the people who turned their hearts back, or was it God that turned their hearts back? The people responded, God did the work. It is the same in every case individually and corporately.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16479
08/08/06 06:19 PM
08/08/06 06:19 PM
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God is a loving, wise Father. He knows when the time is right. I agree with you 100% that revival must be ordained of God, and is not something which can be manufactured by man. But there is no arbitrary reason why God witholds His Spirit. God never ordains that a revival should *not* occur. He simply waits to act at such a time when His actions are most likely to succeed.
But revival is simply not something God can unilaterally cause to occur, which is obvious. If it were, Israel wouldn't have apostasized, Adam and Eve would never have sinned, and Lucifer wouldn't have rebelled.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16480
08/09/06 01:36 AM
08/09/06 01:36 AM
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Quote:
Don't misunderstand me please on the importance of prayer in every revival. Just notice that no amount of prayer will bring revival corporately unless the revival is ordained of God. We can't choose when that happens either individually or corporately. It is the work of God.
Of course, it needs to be realized that we cannot summon God to give us His spirit, with our will. Yes, that may be a bigger problem than one thinks it is. Too many people look on the watch and say: I still have some time, and somehow they expect to be saved, just in time. Salvation is not a formula that we can use at will. That is salvation by demand, and not by faith. Today is the day; if you hear my voice, harden not your heart.
On the other hand it is just as wrong to think that God does not receive sinners, who come to him in faith; who fall at his mercy; who when they hear his voice respond of a free will.
The one thing that I have seen as the fruit of the election doctrine is that while suggesting that there is nothing we can do; it in turn requires God to change our feelings, desires, physical dispositions, and our own will; in order for us to respond to him. “If I am chosen then I will be saved”. In that way the man remains living by his physical dispositions, feelings, desires, and will of man; and there is no response of faith. Thus the man is never turned from flesh to spirit.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16481
08/09/06 04:05 AM
08/09/06 04:05 AM
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Active Member 2012
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The problem with putting off responding to God's pleas that we be reconciled is not that God will change His mind, or become impatient, or say, "Too bad, you had your chance" but that sin hardens our heart. It causes us to lose interest in spiritual things. We lose a desire to have anything to do with God.
We don't have the luxury to harden our heart and think we can repent at will. God will never withhold His spirit from us (He is not willing that any should perish), but we may reach a situation like Esau (and Satan) where we seek repentance with tears, but are unable to find it.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16482
08/09/06 11:06 AM
08/09/06 11:06 AM
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OP
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Excellent points in the last two posts John and Tom. John's point that God never turns a sinner away who comes humbly seeking God's mercy was very well said, as was his point that today is the appointed day of salvation.
Have you folk given more thought to the idea that in reality, although God enlightens and draws everyone, individually and corporately He is still the creator of the moral regeneration and since He is the author of all creation and true rennovation, we have to give place to Him as the one responsible, and not take the credit for our responding. I referred you to Elijah's view of Isreal's reformation. It was God who turned the people's hearts back - the people only responded. It is God who turns the sinners heart to him. And although Joshua's excellent challenge to 'Choose this day whom you will serve' still re-echo's in our ears, it is God who creates the desire and empower's the will.
God, speaking of the revival of the final days that are just ahead says "Shall *I* bring to [spiritual] birth and not cause to come forth." Is 66:9
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