Are you saying that Adam's "righteousness and true holiness" was even dimmer than the candlelight of true believers?

I suspect the level of maturity (light intensity) Adam achieved before he sinned is less than people like Enoch, Moses, Elijah, Daniel, John, Paul, etc. However, by the time he died of old age several hundred years later I'm sure he reached a level of maturity that has been unmatched by another human since.

So you are saying that sinless Adam's light was less than the candlelight of true believers such as Enoch. But the light of converted Adam was the brightest of any human ever. Did I understand you correctly?

Mt Man, Of course, He endured more than we could ever endure. But you make it sound like He did it all in fallen human sinful flesh nature, but I have pointed out;

"Christ could have done nothing during His earthly ministry in saving fallen man if the divine had not been blended with the human. The limited capacity of man cannot define this wonderful mystery—the blending of the two natures, the divine and the human. It can never be explained. Man must wonder and be silent. And yet man is privileged to be a partaker of the divine nature, and in this way he can to some degree enter into the mystery (Letter 5, 1889).{7BC 904.5}

Read that quote over and over. You need this in your approach to comprehend what you are trying to teach.

This is how we are part of the divine nature but it is something that you completely ignore. I am sent to warn you that you are building a fallen erroneous theory around a very precious element of our salvation. You have not even begun to try to fathom this and ignore every attempt to correct you like you don't even care to know the truth.

You must find the balance or you will never partake of the divine nature! Stop acting like you know the truth when it is totally revealed that you do NOT! I have to speak this way to get through to you. The moment I read your statement at the beginning of this thread God warned me for you and every moment of every day that I was not preoccupied since then I have been praying and studying how to help you understand. This is a very advanced level of comprehension that I am trying to share with you. That is not boasting it is the truth.

"The temptations of Christ, and his sufferings under them, were proportionate to his exalted, sinless character. {3SM 131.4}

You keep pointing out over and over that He had sin in His sinful flesh...Why? You say He was a descendant of sinful men...correct? But the bible doesn't say that a son has to pay the penalty for his father...(unless he doesn't repent)

Ezekiel 18:14 “Now suppose this man fathers a son who sees all the sins that his father has done; he sees, and does not do likewise: 15 he does not eat upon the mountains or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, does not defile his neighbor's wife, 16 does not oppress anyone, exacts no pledge, commits no robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with a garment, 17 withholds his hand from iniquity, takes no interest or profit, obeys my rules, and walks in my statutes; he shall not die for his father's iniquity; he shall surely live. 18 As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother, and did what is not good among his people, behold, he shall die for his iniquity.
19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father?’ When the son has done what is just and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

So why do you insist that He had sinful flesh? He did not. He had flesh but He walked in the Spirit.

"Was the human nature of the Son of Mary changed into the divine nature of the Son of God? No; the two natures were mysteriously blended in one person—the man Christ Jesus. In Him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. When Christ was crucified, it was His human nature that died. Deity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible. {5BC 1113.2}

"Through being partakers of the divine nature we may stand pure and holy and undefiled. The Godhead was not made human, and the human was not deified by the blending together of the two natures. Christ did not possess the same sinful, corrupt, fallen disloyalty we possess, for then he could not be a perfect offering.—Manuscript 94, 1893.{3SM 131.1}

Not only was He tempted like we could be on every issue, but at the end of His ministry He also bore the sins we committed. Can't you see that in everything I wrote here?

You quoted this one and I'm glad you pointed it out, but I don't see how you could have quoted it without seeing how it supports what I'm trying to convey.

"He endured these temptations, and overcame in man's behalf, working out for him a righteous character, because he knew that man could not do this of himself. {ST, May 27, 1897 par. 6}

Was Jesus a man? You said He had sin in his sinful flesh, but how could that be without taking away the power to overcome sinful flesh? We are not supposed to present Him as a man with sinful propensities.

He was a man in every way in this life, but somehow He had a special power which He knew other MEN didn't posses, and He blazed a trail that NO OTHER MEN could have endured without His power to overcome. If Jesus was in sinful flesh then what gave Him this special power?

You don't understand, I can see it now how confused you are on this issue and I pray that you finally see it. You do not see the two Natures blended in the one man. He had a divine nature and the nature of men.

And every single one of the quotes from the Lord's servant that you used I totally agree with, but what I am saying is that you're view is one sided on this issue. How do you harmonize those statements with the ones I used?

"Christ did not possess the same sinful, corrupt, fallen disloyalty we possess, for then he could not be a perfect offering." —Manuscript 94, 1893.{3SM 131.1}

He had a loyalty that we are not born with. He was the second Adam in a corrupted body. He was perfection inside of imperfection. He loved the Father of Heaven from the womb. Emmanuel, God with us in the bloodline of murderers, fornicators and rapists.

Was HIS flesh sinful? That is the issue. He walked in the Spirit not in the flesh until He took the errors of our sinful flesh upon Himself, but in this, His own character, his own record was spotless. In fact He became more perfect in His trials for us.

He came in the perfection of the Spirit while dwelling in the fallen nature of Men. There were two natures that dwelt in Him.

He was fully God and fully man. This was His advantage.

And again I quote;

Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God. He could fall, and he did fall through transgressing. Because of sin, his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden.{13MR 18.1}

NO WONDER WHY YOU DON'T COMPREHEND WHAT IT MEANT FOR JESUS TO BE THE SECOND ADAM!!!! It all makes sense now.

Adam stood before Jesus after creation and Jesus taught Him directly in the school house of Eden.

"Adam and Eve received instruction through direct communion with God; we behold the light of the knowledge of His glory in the face of Christ."{Ed 30.3}

"The system of education established in Eden centered in the family. Adam was “the son of God” (Luke 3:38), and it was from their Father that the children of the Highest received instruction. Theirs, in the truest sense, was a family school.{AH 181.1}

"Holy angels often visited the garden, and gave instruction to Adam and Eve concerning their employment and also taught them concerning the rebellion and fall of Satan. The angels warned them of Satan and cautioned them not to separate from each other in their employment, for they might be brought in contact with this fallen foe. The angels also enjoined upon them to follow closely the directions God had given them, for in perfect obedience only were they safe. Then this fallen foe could have no power over them.{EW 147.1}

"The holy pair [Adam and Eve] were not only children under the fatherly care of God, but students receiving instruction from the all-wise Creator. They were visited by angels, and were granted communion with their Maker, with no obscuring veil between. They were full of the vigor imparted by the tree of life, and their intellectual power was but little less than that of the angels. The mysteries of the visible universe—“the wondrous works of Him which is perfect in knowledge” [Job 37:16.] afforded them an exhaustless source of instruction and delight. The laws and operations of nature, which have engaged men’s study for six thousand years, were opened to their minds by the infinite Framer and Upholder of all. They held converse with leaf and flower and tree, gathering from each the secrets of its life. With every living creature, from the mighty leviathan that playeth among the waters, to the insect mote that floats in the sunbeam, Adam was familiar. He had given to each its name, and he was acquainted with the nature and habits of all. God’s glory in the heavens, the innumerable worlds in their orderly revolutions, “the balancings of the clouds,” the mysteries of light and sound, of day and night,—all were open to the study of our first parents. On every leaf of the forest, or stone of the mountains, in every shining star, in earth and air and sky, God’s name was written. The order and harmony of creation spoke to them of infinite wisdom and power. They were ever discovering some attraction that filled their hearts with deeper love, and called forth fresh expressions of gratitude. {CE 207.1}
So long as they remained loyal to the divine law, their capacity to know, to enjoy, and to love, would continually increase. They would be constantly gaining new treasures of knowledge, discovering fresh springs of happiness, and obtaining clearer and yet clearer conceptions of the immeasurable, unfailing love of God.—Patriarchs and Prophets, 50, 51.{CE 208.1}

Adam was called a "son of God" and was perfect in intellect and was covered in the robe of righteousness. He was taught directly by God in Eden, then after he fell he was taught the plan of salvation directly by angels at the gate to the Garden of Eden.

"The plan for the salvation of lost mankind is based on man’s acceptance by faith alone of Christ’s substitutionary death. This lesson was taught at the gate of Eden as Adam and his descendants slew the sacrificial lamb. {FW 12.1}

"The requirement under the covenant of grace is just as broad as the requirement made in Eden—harmony with God’s law, which is holy, just, and good." {COL 391.2}

The blending - the divine with sinful human. And this is the mystery of God today and forever—God manifest in the flesh, in human flesh, in flesh, laden with sin, tempted and tried. In this flesh, God will make manifest the knowledge of himself in every place where the believer is found. Believe it, and praise his holy name!

Self-denial, reliance on Christ, and the Converted sinner. A Sabbath morning thought for today...

"Editorial Notes" The Advent Review and Sabbath Herald 76, 16 , p. 248.


THERE is a serious and very bothersome mistake, which is made by many persons. {April 18, 1899 ATJ, ARSH 248.19}

That mistake is made in thinking that when they are converted, their old sinful flesh is blotted out. {April 18, 1899 ATJ, ARSH 248.20}

In other words, they make the mistake of thinking that they are to be delivered from the flesh by having it taken away from them altogether. {April 18, 1899 ATJ, ARSH 248.21}

Then, when they find that this is not so, when they find that the same old flesh, with its inclinations, its besetments, and its enticements, is still there, they are not prepared for it, and so become discourage, and are ready to think that they never were converted at all. {April 18, 1899 ATJ, ARSH 248.22}

And yet, if they would think a little, they ought to be able to see that that is all a mistake. Did you not have exactly the same body after you were converted that you had before? Was not that body composed of exactly the same material—the same flesh and bones and blood—after you were converted as that of which it was composed before? To these questions everybody will promptly say Yes. And plainly that is the truth. {April 18, 1899 ATJ, ARSH 248.23}

And now there are further questions: Was not that flesh also of exactly the same quality as before? Was it not still human flesh, natural flesh, as certainly as it was before?—To this also everybody will say Yes. {April 18, 1899 ATJ, ARSH 248.24}

Then also a still further question: It being the same flesh, and of the same quality,—it still being human flesh, natural flesh,—is it not also still just as certainly sinful flesh as it was before? {April 18, 1899 ATJ, ARSH 248.25}

Just here is where creeps in the mistake of these many persons. To this last question they are inclined to think that the answer should be "No," when it must be only a decided "Yes." And this decided "Yes" must be maintained so long as we continue in this natural body. {April 18, 1899 ATJ, ARSH 248.26}

And when it is decided and constantly maintained that the flesh of the converted person is still sinful flesh, and only sinful flesh, he is so thoroughly convinced that in his flesh dwells no good thing that he will never allow a shadow of confidence in the flesh. And this being so, his sole dependence is upon something other than the flesh, even upon the Holy Spirit of God; his source of strength and hope is altogether exclusive of the flesh, even in Jesus Christ only. And being everlastingly watchful, suspicious, and thoroughly distrustful of the flesh, he never can expect any good thing from that source, and so is prepared by the power of God to beat back and crush down without mercy every impulse or suggestion that may arise from it; and so does not fail, does not become discouraged, but goes on from victory to victory and from strength to strength. {April 18, 1899 ATJ, ARSH 248.27}

Conversion, then, you see, does not put new flesh upon the old spirit; but a new Spirit within the old flesh. It does not propose to bring new flesh to the old mind; but a new mind to the old flesh. Deliverance and victory are not gained by having the human nature taken away; but by receiving the divine nature to subdue and have dominion over the human,—not by the taking away of the sinful flesh, but by the sending in of the sinless Spirit to conquer and condemn sin in the flesh. {April 18, 1899 ATJ, ARSH 248.28}

The Scripture does not say, Let this flesh be upon you, which was also upon Christ; but it does say, "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus." Philippians 2:5. {April 18, 1899 ATJ, ARSH 248.29}

The Scripture does not say, Be ye transformed by the renewing of your flesh; but it does say, "Be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind." Romans 12:2. We shall be translated by the renewing of our flesh; but we must be transformed by the renewing of our minds. {April 18, 1899 ATJ, ARSH 248.30}

The Lord Jesus took the same flesh and blood, the same human nature, that we have,—flesh just like our sinful flesh,—and because of sin, and by the power of the Spirit of God through the divine mind that was in him, "condemned sin in the flesh." Romans 8:3. And therein is our deliverance (Romans 7:25), therein is our victory. "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus." "A new heart will I give you, and a new Spirit will I put within you." {April 18, 1899 ATJ, ARSH 248.31}

Do not be discouraged at sight of sinfulness in the flesh. It is only in the light of the Spirit of God, and by the discernment of the mind of Christ, that you can see so much sinfulness in your flesh; and the more sinfulness you see in your flesh, the more of the Spirit of God you certainly have. This is a sure test. Then when you see sinfulness abundant in you, thank the Lord that you have so much of the Spirit of God that you can see so much of the sinfulness; and know of a surety that when sinfulness abounds, grace much more abounds in order that "as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord." {April 18, 1899 ATJ, ARSH 248.32}

WW Prescott

REUNITED FAMILY IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD

He came and took the flesh of sin that this family had brought upon itself by sin, and wrought out salvation for them, condemning sin in the flesh. {January 6, 1896 WWP, BEST 4.13}

Adam failed in his place, and by the offence of one many were made sinners. Jesus Christ gave Himself, not only for us, but to us, uniting Himself to the family, in order that He might take the place of the first Adam, and as head of the family win back what was lost by the first Adam. The righteousness of Jesus Christ is a representative righteousness, just as the sin of Adam was a representative sin, and Jesus Christ, as the second Adam, gathered to Himself the whole family. {January 6, 1896 WWP, BEST 4.14}

But since the first Adam took his place, there has been a change, and humanity is sinful humanity. The power of righteousness has been lost. To redeem man from the place unto which he had fallen, Jesus Christ comes, and takes the very flesh now borne by humanity; He comes in sinful flesh, and takes the case where Adam tried it and failed. He became, not a man, but He became flesh; He became human, and gathered all humanity unto Himself, embraced it in His own infinite mind, and stood as the representative of the whole human family. {January 6, 1896 WWP, BEST 4.15}

Adam was tempted at the very first on the question of appetite. Christ came, and after a forty days' fast the devil tempted Him to use His divine power to feed Himself. And notice, it was in sinful flesh that He was tempted, not the flesh in which Adam fell. This is wondrous truth, but I am wondrous glad that it is so. It follows at once that by birth, by being born into the same family, Jesus Christ is my brother in the flesh, "for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brethren." Hebrews 2:11. He has come into the family, identified Himself with the family, is both father of the family and brother of the family. As father of the family, He stands for the family. He came to redeem the family, condemning sin in the flesh, uniting divinity with flesh of sin. Jesus Christ made the connection between God and man, that the divine spirit might rest upon humanity. He made the way for humanity. {January 6, 1896 WWP, BEST 4.16}

HE HATH BORNE OUR GRIEFS

And He came right near to us. He is not one step away from one of us. He "was made in the likeness of men." Philippians 2:7. He is now made in the likeness of man, and at the same time He holds His divinity; He is the divine Son of God. And so, by His divinity joining itself to humanity, He will restore man to the likeness of God. Jesus Christ, in taking the place of Adam, took our flesh. He took our place completely, in order that we might take His place. He took our place with all its consequences, and that meant death, in order that we might take His place with all its consequences, and that is life eternal. "For He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him." 2 Corinthians 5:21. He was not a sinner; but He invited God to treat Him as if He were a sinner, in order that we, who were sinners, might be treated as if we were righteous. "Surely He hath borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we did esteem Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted." Isaiah 53:4. The sorrows that He bore were our sorrows, and it is actually true that He did so identify Himself with our human nature as to bear in Himself all the sorrows and all the griefs of all the human family. "He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon Him, and with His stripes we are healed." What was bruising to Him was healing to us, and He was bruised in order that we might be healed. "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all." Isaiah 53:6. And then He died because on Him was laid the iniquity of us all. There was no sin in Him, but the sins of the whole world were laid on Him. Behold the Lamb of God, which beareth the sins of the whole world. "And He is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2. {January 6, 1896 WWP, BEST 4.17}

Sorry, but that is not true.

///

ROMAN CATHOLIC tradition, which, according to the teaching of the church, is declared to be "more clear and safe" 4 than the Bible, says that Joachim and Anne were the parents of Mary the mother of Jesus. 5 And it is by them, we are told, that the great feat of lifting the ancestry of Mary from sinful flesh to sinless flesh was accomplished. {September 20, 1894 ATJ, AMS 289.7}

...

AND now Pope Leo XIII. has the hardihood to invite us away from this Saviour who is so close to us that he dwells in us and condemns sin in our sinful flesh as he condemned sin in the sinful flesh which he inherited from his mother Mary,—he calls us away from this Saviour to a saviour who was born from "immaculate" flesh, "purer than the angels, holier than the archangels," and who, therefore, cannot be touched with the feelings of our infirmities, and must be touched with a "ladder." He calls us to a saviour so widely separated from us that there must be a "bridge" constructed to span the chasm. And he asks us to trust our eternal life to this human structure, whose spans are made of "fasts," and "mortifications," and "good works." And besides inviting us to trust our salvation to this phantom "bridge," he demands toll for the passage of our soul at every span of its almost limitless length; while our Saviour, "without money and without price," "freely," reaches over the battlements of heaven and, while holding fast to the throne of the Infinite with the arm of omnipotence, encircles us with his long human arm, that arm that is "not shortened that it cannot save," and presses us lovingly to that bosom that is "touched with the feeling of our infirmities." {September 20, 1894 ATJ, AMS 290.5}

And now instead of accepting the invitation of Pope Leo XIII. we, on the contrary, invite, with the words of our Saviour, him and all his deluded followers who are trusting for salvation to human ladders and bridges, and all others who know not our Lord: "Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and amy burden is light." Matthew 11:28-30. "And the spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely." Revelation 22:17. {September 20, 1894 ATJ, AMS 290.6}


SO YOU SEE - Is it from Popery that idea that Christ had "immaculate" flesh.