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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16483
08/09/06 10:58 PM
08/09/06 10:58 PM
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Thanks for rounding it out, Tom.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16484
08/09/06 11:32 PM
08/09/06 11:32 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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John, my pleasure.
Mark, I don't see how any converted person could take credit for responding. What is there to take credit for? God, out of His mercy and kindness, graciously forgives us.
It's like the guy who owed the king 10,000 talents, asked the king to forgive him, and the king "freely forgave" him. What does he have to take credit for? Asking for forgiveness?
Is he likely to take credit for asking the king for forgiveness, or lauding the graciousness of the king who forgave him?
I think you're bringing out a good point, Mark, which is that if any of us are saved at last, it will be 100% due to God's goodness, kindess and grace.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16486
09/09/06 02:28 AM
09/09/06 02:28 AM
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Tom, you suggested earlier that Adventist doctrine on free will is rooted in the Wesleyan tradition. I was reading Luther’s Commentary on Romans translated by JT Mueller and on the flyleaf it quoted John Wesley’s journal entry of May 24, 1738:
“In the evening I went very unwillingly to a society in Aldergate Street where one was reading Luther’s preface to the Epistle to the Romans. About a quarter before nine while he was describing the change which God works in the heart through faith in Christ, I felt my heart strangly warmed; I felt I did trust in Christ, Christ alone, for my salvation; an assurance was given me that He had taken away my sins . . . .”
I was quite interested in this amazing connection between Luther’s preface which I read today for the first time, and Wesley’s conversion for several reasons. One is that the preface is full of the life, pith and substance of the gospel, as Wesley is witness. So there is a clear connection between Wesleyan doctrine and Luther’s thought. Another is that Luther’s preface also refers to your illustration of the man who owes the debt that you posted above in your last post. I’ll quote Luther on it tomorrow – it’s short. Another reason is that in this same little preface - only about 12 pages long - Luther has some insightful and timely things to say about predestination that I’ll quote in full tomorrow and that I hope stimulate thought.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16487
09/09/06 04:45 AM
09/09/06 04:45 AM
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Mark, are you not aware that SDAism comes from a Wesleyan tradition?
Wesley's conversion story is well known. I think Ellen White quotes it in "The Great Controversy". There's no doubt that Luther was sincerely converted, and used of God. But that doesn't mean he had all truth. If he did, we'd be Lutherans!
Some differences between Lutheran theology and Wesleyan theology include differences in predestination and perfection of character.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16488
09/09/06 01:55 PM
09/09/06 01:55 PM
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Tom, here is the quote I promised on Luther’s view of the atonement. I’m sure the Wesley brothers shared this view. Luther was God’s instrument to revive the church in modern times and link it once again to the prophetic faith of our fathers. Luther’s genius was in his firm and scriptural understanding of righteousness by faith without works but which bears fruit in works of every kind. Do you think it is possible for Luther to have been used effectively by God to revive our ancient faith if he was so mislead regarding the mechanism of salvation? if he believed, like you, that Christ did not satisfy the justice of the law for us. It is no coincidence that Wesley found conversion in reading this very work of Luther that contains the following statement: Quote:
This [gospel] freedom is, therefore, a spiritual freedom which does not suspend the law but which supplies what the law demands, namely eagerness and love. These silence the law so that it has no further cause to drive people on and make demands of them. It's as though you owed something to a moneylender and couldn't pay him. You could be rid of him in one of two ways: either he would take nothing from you and would tear up his account book, or a pious man would pay for you and give you what you needed to satisfy your debt. That's exactly how Christ freed us from the law.
If all of the great Protestant reformers were united on this point, (and although they were sometimes divided on secondary points, they were never divided on the meaning of the sacrifice of Christ and on the fact that Christ satisfied the demands of the law), then we not only have the testimony of scripture, we also have a host of witnesses in reformation history that this doctrine is true and central to all genuine Christian faith. Where is there any evidence that anyone brought any spiritual life and revival to the church who openly taught that Christ’s death was not essential to meet the justice of the law? There is evidence, though, that the Maxwellian view or moral influence theory in its different forms produces only unwholesome fruit – witness for example the general state of the church in southern California. I expect you’ll deny the connection I'm making but it exists regardless. It is no surprise that a doctrine like this would find traction in a church that is close to being devoid of the spirit of Christ and of a true understanding of the gospel, that mistakes licence for love, that openly rebels against the world body of the church (regarding women's ordination), that has little love and reverence for the law. But they apparently do have one thing in California in their favour: I understand that there are some congregations that still value the bible and Ellen White's writings.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16489
09/09/06 03:32 PM
09/09/06 03:32 PM
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On the doctrine of the election in Romans, Luther says: Quote:
In chapters 9, 10 and 11, St. Paul teaches us about the eternal providence of God. It is the original source which determines who would believe and who wouldn't, who can be set free from sin and who cannot. Such matters have been taken out of our hands and are put into God's hands so that we might become virtuous. It is absolutely necessary that it be so, for we are so weak and unsure of ourselves that, if it depended on us, no human being would be saved. The devil would overpower all of us. But God is steadfast; his providence will not fail, and no one can prevent its realization. Therefore we have hope against sin.
But here we must shut the mouths of those sacrilegious and arrogant spirits who, mere beginners that they are, bring their reason to bear on this matter and commence, from their exalted position, to probe the abyss of divine providence and uselessly trouble themselves about whether they are predestined or not. These people must surely plunge to their ruin, since they will either despair or abandon them selves to a life of chance. You, however, follow the reasoning of this letter in the order in which it is presented. Fix your attention first of all on Christ and the Gospel, so that you may recognize your sin and his grace. Then struggle against sin, as chapters 1-8 have taught you to. Finally, when you have come, in chapter 8, under the shadow of the cross and suffering, they will teach you, in chapters 9-11, about providence and what a comfort it is. Apart from [the Christian experiencing the] suffering, the cross and the pangs of death, you cannot come to grips with providence without harm to yourself and secret anger against God. The old Adam must be quite dead before you can endure this matter and drink this strong wine. Therefore make sure you don't drink wine while you are still a babe at the breast. There is a proper measure, time and age for understanding every doctrine. Preface to Romans, Dr. Martin Luther, 1522.
Earlier in the thread I suggested the same reason that Luther gives above that Ellen White is not more open in her writings in advancing the election view – that is, because it is meat that the church wasn’t and still isn’t able to tolerate. Luther confirms that view. Notice his advice. Luther is a man that although he was never convicted on the Sabbath, still understood the heart of the gospel better by far than most Adventists. He counts this doctrine as essential to a more advanced understanding of faith, but notice that he warns it is not possible to tolerate it by those who haven’t personally experienced the ‘suffering, the cross and the pangs of death’ of Christ in their own lives. His advice to those who haven’t done this, and I second his opinion, is to leave the doctrine alone until they have. As Luther points out, we need to become grounded in the experience outlined by the Apostle in the first eight chapters of Romans before attempting to understand the intent of chapters 9 to 11.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16490
09/09/06 06:15 PM
09/09/06 06:15 PM
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I accidently put a post here that was supposed to be for another thread. Sorry friends.
Last edited by Mark Shipowick; 09/09/06 11:48 PM.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16491
09/10/06 03:57 AM
09/10/06 03:57 AM
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Lawrence, Kansas
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Quote:
If all of the great Protestant reformers were united on this point, (and although they were sometimes divided on secondary points, they were never divided on the meaning of the sacrifice of Christ and on the fact that Christ satisfied the demands of the law), then we not only have the testimony of scripture, we also have a host of witnesses in reformation history that this doctrine is true and central to all genuine Christian faith.
This logic would also argue that we should be keeping Sunday. What's the difference?
Truth is progressive. The reformers didn't know of Christ's work in the heavenly sanctuary. That's another point they all agreed upon, but were incorrect about.
As to what the testiomony of Scripture says, that's what the whole question is. Can you produce a single quote of Jesus Christ to support your ideas regarding the atonement?
Consider the following statement by E. J. Waggoner:
The statement then is simply that Christ is set forth to be a sacrifice for the remission of our sins. "Once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." Heb. 9:26. Of course the idea of a propitiation or sacrifice is that there is wrath to be appeased. But take particular notice that it is we who require the sacrifice, and not God. He provides the sacrifice. The idea that God's wrath has to be propitiated in order that we may have forgiveness finds no warrant in the Bible. (Waggoner on Romans)
I haven't done a study to know how many SDA's in Waggoner's time understood this. I know of at least one other (Fifield).
The message given us by A. T. Jones, and E. J. Waggoner is the message of God to the Laodicean church, and woe be unto anyone who professes to believe the truth and yet does not reflect to others the God-given rays. (1888 Materials 1052)
Ellen White endorsed Jones and Waggoner's message over 1,000 times! (and we get excited over one endorsement of Luther -- seems wierd to me). She wrote over 2,000 pages on the subject! More than on the Sabbath, or just about any other subject she wrote about.
I'm making this point because it seems to me you are overemphasizing works with which we should be familiar (Luther, and the others) to the detriment of works we should be even more are of; a message given to us by God directly for our church!
The reformers did not know about the Sabbath, the State of the Dead, Christ's work in the heavenly sanctuary. They presented views we don't agree with in regards to predestination and perfection of character.
Regarding the atonement and justification by faith, Waggoner had the benefit of Luther and the other's writings. He built upon what they wrote, taking advantage of the truths which God had revealed to them, to bring us truth which those who preceeded him were not aware of.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: God's election to save vs. the human choice.
#16492
09/10/06 03:59 AM
09/10/06 03:59 AM
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Active Member 2012
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I responded in this thread because what I wrote was generic in nature, not limited to the atonement question, but addressing more the issue of how we should understand the writings the Lord has provided us.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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