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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #164891
05/10/14 08:26 PM
05/10/14 08:26 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Don't even think to say Mrs White believed Jesus was part of the Pagan "original sin" idea APL.

That is NOT what I have been saying at all.

Why would I quote Ezekiel 18: 14 if that is what I believed?

She said He had two natures. He did not elevate Mary to sinless flesh. But He himself did not have SIN IN HIS FLESH. Two totally different beliefs. He never fell to even the thought of sin which means He did not have sin in His flesh. I challenge anyone to come up with a quote from Mrs White or the bible that says that Jesus had sin in His flesh. I dare you.

He was born into the fallen race but He himself was not fallen and that is why He is called the second Adam. Adam before sin was not fallen but He could fall. This was the state of Jesus here on earth. He was not fallen but He could fall. Original sin concept does not say that at all. They say Jesus did not come in the flesh and He could never fall. So don't you dare try to say what Mrs White and I have been teaching is part of the Original sin concept you will not your outcome if you do.

I never ever would claim Mary was born sinless.

Jesus had the HEAVENLY FATHER as His pro-creator on earth. No earthly father could claim to be His dad. So He had two natures. It was His only advantage on earth.

Jesus was born under probation like Adam is another way of putting it. If Jesus fell we would be lost, if He didn't fall we could be saved. Perfection had to be manifest in the flesh in order for us to be saved.

Would you please stop and pray before opening your mouths on such an important subject?

I feel this subject is way too deep for the non-Adventist public to view but since it was started here it must finished here.

Mrs White was given the perfect understanding of this issue. And anyone who argues against her God inspired writings will not be ready for the Latter rain.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: asygo] #164920
05/11/14 06:09 PM
05/11/14 06:09 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: asygo
M: I suspect the level of maturity (light intensity) Adam achieved before he sinned is less than people like Enoch, Moses, Elijah, Daniel, John, Paul, etc. However, by the time he died of old age several hundred years later I'm sure he reached a level of maturity that has been unmatched by another human since.

A: So you are saying that sinless Adam's light was less than the candlelight of true believers such as Enoch. But the light of converted Adam was the brightest of any human ever. Did I understand you correctly?

Level of maturity - "shineth more and more unto the perfect day." Adam matured in the fruit of the Spirit as he aged. He was not as mature before he fell as he was the day he died. The difference before and after he sinned is not measured in terms of sin. The difference is measured in terms of maturation. Enoch was more mature the day before he was translated than Adam was the day before he sinned. But Adam was more mature the day before he died than Enoch was the day before he was translated.

"Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit." Matthew 7:17-18. Not a little of both. We are either all of his and free of sin or none of his and full of sin. There is no third possibility. "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Romans 8:8-9. Adam was a good tree before he sinned and after he was born again.

Quote:
Through being partakers of the divine nature we may stand pure and holy and undefiled. {6MR 112.2}

Every one who by faith obeys God's commandments, will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. {ST, July 23, 1902 par. 14}

Obedience to the laws of God develops in man a beautiful character that is in harmony with all that is pure and holy and undefiled. In the life of such a man the message of the gospel of Christ is made clear. Accepting the mercy of Christ and His healing from the power of sin, he is brought into right relation with God. His life, cleansed from vanity and selfishness, is filled with the love of God. His daily obedience to the law of God obtains for him a character that assures him eternal life in the kingdom of God. {AG 146.2}

The quality of the fruit of the Spirit is same at all times in all ages. The fruit of the Spirit is the fruit of the Spirit. The channel through which it flows does not change the fact it is the fruit of the Spirit. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." We mature "from faith to faith," "from glory to glory,", and "from grace to grace". "This sanctification is a progressive work, and an advance from one stage of perfection to another." {ML 250.4}

Quote:
The path of the just is a progressive one, from strength to strength, from grace to grace, and from glory to glory. {AG 311.5}

In this way, we go on from grace to grace, from strength to strength, obtaining one spiritual victory after another.{DG 184.4}

If we are true to the promptings of the Spirit of God, we shall go on from grace to grace, and from glory to glory, until we shall receive the finishing touch of immortality. {LHU 376.3}

By beholding Jesus we receive a living, expanding principle in the heart, and the Holy Spirit carries on the work, and the believer advances from grace to grace, from strength to strength, from character to character. He conforms to the image of Christ, until in spiritual growth he attains unto the measure of the full stature in Christ Jesus. Thus Christ makes an end of the curse of sin, and sets the believing soul free from its action and effect. {NL 26.2}

Righteousness is obedience to the law. The law demands righteousness, and this the sinner owes to the law; but he is incapable of rendering it. The only way in which he can attain to righteousness is through faith. By faith he can bring to God the merits of Christ, and the Lord places the obedience of His Son to the sinner's account. Christ's righteousness is accepted in place of man's failure, and God receives, pardons, justifies, the repentant, believing soul, treats him as though he were righteous, and loves him as He loves His Son. This is how faith is accounted righteousness; and the pardoned soul goes on from grace to grace, from light to a greater light. {FW 101.1}

Not from greater sins to lesser sins.

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #164921
05/11/14 06:24 PM
05/11/14 06:24 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: jsot
And yet man is privileged to be a partaker of the divine nature, and in this way he can to some degree enter into the mystery (Letter 5, 1889).{7BC 904.5}

Read that quote over and over. You need this in your approach to comprehend what you are trying to teach. This is how we are part of the divine nature but it is something that you completely ignore. I am sent to warn you that you are building a fallen erroneous theory around a very precious element of our salvation. You have not even begun to try to fathom this and ignore every attempt to correct you like you don't even care to know the truth.

You must find the balance or you will never partake of the divine nature! Stop acting like you know the truth when it is totally revealed that you do NOT! I have to speak this way to get through to you. The moment I read your statement at the beginning of this thread God warned me for you and every moment of every day that I was not preoccupied since then I have been praying and studying how to help you understand. This is a very advanced level of comprehension that I am trying to share with you. That is not boasting it is the truth.

I completely agree with - "And yet man is privileged to be a partaker of the divine nature, and in this way he can to some degree enter into the mystery." People receive, the instant they experience the miracle of rebirth, a "new nature" - "Christ's nature, a nature far above that which Adam forfeited by transgression." {UL 18.3} It is this "new nature" that enables them to partake of the divine nature. The righteous results of combining the two natures in them is the fruit of the Spirit - "pure and holy and undefiled." And all this despite the fact they retain sinful flesh, which continually wars against them, tempting them from within to be unlike Jesus.

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #164922
05/11/14 06:25 PM
05/11/14 06:25 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. The following passages describe what it means to be a true believer:

Quote:
[God] abhors all selfishness and covetousness. {OHC 225.2}

All selfishness comes from Satan. {LHU 292.2}

Christ strikes at the root of all selfishness. {5T 204.2}

All selfishness must be cut out by the roots. {RC 287.6}

Our souls must be purified from all selfishness; for God desires to use His people as representatives of the heavenly kingdom. {6T 190.3}

The true Christian banishes all selfishness from his heart. . . . The true Christian works unselfishly and untiringly for the Master. {OHC 287}

Bible conversion will lead to constant and abiding activity, which will be free from all selfishness, all self-exaltation, and all boastful claims of holiness. {SD 334.3}

But few have a true sense of what is comprised in the word Christian. It is to be Christlike, to do others good, to be divested of all selfishness, and to have our lives marked with acts of disinterested benevolence. {2T 331.1}

For "if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." That which was objectionable in the character is purified from the soul by the love of Jesus. All selfishness is expelled, all envy, all evil-speaking, is rooted out, and a radical transformation is wrought in the heart. "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." "The fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace. {RH, July 22, 1890 par. 15}

Christ lives in them, and the power of His Spirit attends their efforts. They realize that they are to live in this world the life that Jesus lived--a life free from all selfishness; and He enables them to bear witness for Him that draws souls to the cross of Calvary.--ST, Apr. 9, 1902.{DG 81.4}

No one can be omnipotent, but all can cleanse themselves from filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of the Lord. God requires every soul to be pure and holy. We have hereditary tendencies to wrong. This is a part of self that no one need carry about. It is a weakness of humanity to pet selfishness, because it is a natural trait of character. But unless all selfishness is put away, unless self is crucified, we can never be holy as God is holy. There is in humanity a tendency to suspicious imagining, which circumstances quicken into lively growth. If this trait is indulged, it spoils the character and ruins the soul. {FLB 140.4}

In light of the insightful descriptions posted above, what does it mean to "deny self as did Christ"?

Quote:
If we are indeed to overcome as Christ overcame, that we may mingle with the bloodwashed, glorified company before the throne of God, it is of the highest importance that we become acquainted with the life of our Redeemer and deny self as did Christ. We must meet temptations and overcome obstacles, and through toil and suffering in the name of Jesus overcome as he overcame. The great trial of Christ in the wilderness on the point of appetite was to leave man an example of self-denial. {RH, October 13, 1874}

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #164923
05/11/14 06:26 PM
05/11/14 06:26 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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James, do you believe Jesus fought "the greatest battle ever fought"? See post below.

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #164924
05/11/14 06:28 PM
05/11/14 06:28 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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James, did Jesus fight "the greatest battle" - "the warfare against self"? Or, must we bear the greatest battle which Jesus did not?

We have nothing to bear which He has not endured. If we had to bear anything which Jesus did not endure, then upon this point Satan would represent the power of God as insufficient for us.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Christ bore the sins and infirmities of the race as they existed when he came to the earth to help man. In behalf of the race, with the weaknesses of fallen man upon him, he was to stand the temptations of Satan upon all points wherewith man would be assailed. {RH, July 28, 1874 par. 3}

Those who claim that it was not possible for Christ to sin, cannot believe that He really took upon Himself human nature. But was not Christ actually tempted, not only by Satan in the wilderness, but all through His life, from childhood to manhood? Our Saviour took humanity, with all its liabilities. He took the nature of man, with the possibility of yielding to temptation. We have nothing to bear which He has not endured. {FLB 48}

Quote:
The warfare against self is the greatest battle that was ever fought. The yielding of self, surrendering all to the will of God, requires a struggle; but the soul must submit to God before it can be renewed in holiness. {SC 43.3}

But a warfare against self, subduing the desires and affections of his own heart, and searching out and controlling the secret motives of the heart, is a more difficult warfare. How unwilling is he to be faithful in such a contest as this! The warfare against self is the greatest battle that was ever fought. The yielding of self, surrendering all to the will of God and being clothed with humility, possessing that love that is pure, peaceable, and easy to be entreated, full of gentleness and good fruits, is not an easy attainment. And yet it is his privilege and his duty to be a perfect overcomer here. The soul must submit to God before it can be renewed in knowledge and true holiness. {3T 106.2}

The Christian life is a battle and a march. But the victory to be gained is not won by human power. The field of conflict is the domain of the heart. The battle which we have to fight--the greatest battle that was ever fought by man--is the surrender of self to the will of God, the yielding of the heart to the sovereignty of love. The old nature, born of blood and of the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up. {MB 141.2}

He who determines to enter the spiritual kingdom will find that all the powers and passions of an unregenerate nature, backed by the forces of the kingdom of darkness, are arrayed against him. Selfishness and pride will make a stand against anything that would show them to be sinful. We cannot, of ourselves, conquer the evil desires and habits that strive for the mastery. We cannot overcome the mighty foe who holds us in his thrall. God alone can give us the victory. He desires us to have the mastery over ourselves, our own will and ways. But He cannot work in us without our consent and co-operation. The divine Spirit works through the faculties and powers given to man. Our energies are required to co-operate with God. {MB 141.3}

Jesus Himself, while He dwelt among men, was often in prayer. Our Saviour identified Himself with our needs and weakness, in that He became a suppliant, a petitioner, seeking from His Father fresh supplies of strength, that He might come forth braced for duty and trial. He is our example in all things. He is a brother in our infirmities, "in all points tempted like as we are;" but as the sinless one His nature recoiled from evil; He endured struggles and torture of soul in a world of sin. His humanity made prayer a necessity and a privilege. He found comfort and joy in communion with His Father. And if the Saviour of men, the Son of God, felt the need of prayer, how much more should feeble, sinful mortals feel the necessity of fervent, constant prayer. {SC 93.4}

As a man, Jesus also fought "the greatest battle" - else He is not our Example "in all things". Listen:

Quote:
As one of us He was to give an example of obedience. For this He took upon Himself our nature, and passed through our experiences. "In all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren." Hebrews 2:17. If we had to bear anything which Jesus did not endure, then upon this point Satan would represent the power of God as insufficient for us. Therefore Jesus was "in all points tempted like as we are." Hebrews 4:15. He endured every trial to which we are subject. And He exercised in His own behalf no power that is not freely offered to us. As man, He met temptation, and overcame in the strength given Him from God. He says, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God: yea, Thy law is within My heart." Psalm 40:8. As He went about doing good, and healing all who were afflicted by Satan, He made plain to men the character of God's law and the nature of His service. His life testifies that it is possible for us also to obey the law of God. {DA 24.2}

"If we had to bear anything which Jesus did not endure, then upon this point Satan would represent the power of God as insufficient for us." To say Jesus did not fight "the greatest battle" is to "destroy the completeness of His humanity". Again, listen:

Quote:
Bear in mind that Christ's overcoming and obedience is that of a true human being. In our conclusions, we make many mistakes because of our erroneous views of the human nature of our Lord. When we give to His human nature a power that it is not possible for man to have in his conflicts with Satan, we destroy the completeness of His humanity. His imputed grace and power He gives to all who receive Him by faith. The obedience of Christ to His Father was the same obedience that is required of man. {3SM 139.4}

Man cannot overcome Satan's temptations without divine power to combine with His instrumentality. So with Jesus Christ, He could lay hold of divine power. He came not to our world to give the obedience of a lesser God to a greater, but as a man to obey God's Holy Law, and in this way He is our example. {3SM 140.1}

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #164926
05/11/14 06:35 PM
05/11/14 06:35 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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James, do you agree with the following statements:

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh. He was in the world, but not of the world. He was in sinful flesh, but not of sinful flesh. Yes, Jesus is the second Adam. "His spiritual nature was free from every taint of sin."

However, unlike Adam, He took upon His sinless nature our weak, fallen, sinful, suffering human nature, degraded and defiled by sin. He took humanity with all its liabilities. He endured all the temptations wherewith man is beset. We have nothing to bear which He has not endured.

He assumed human nature with its temptations. He felt the overwhelming tide of woe that deluged the world. He realized the strength of indulged appetite and of unholy passion that controlled the world.

"In all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren." Hebrews 2:17. Not in some things, or most things, but "in all things". "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same". Hebrews 2:14.

Do you believe Jesus' human nature was:

1. Weak
2. Fallen
3. Sinful
4. Suffering
5. Defiled by sin
6. Degraded by sin

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #164938
05/12/14 07:06 PM
05/12/14 07:06 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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"A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit". Matthew 7:18.

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #164948
05/13/14 07:27 AM
05/13/14 07:27 AM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: asygo
M: I suspect the level of maturity (light intensity) Adam achieved before he sinned is less than people like Enoch, Moses, Elijah, Daniel, John, Paul, etc. However, by the time he died of old age several hundred years later I'm sure he reached a level of maturity that has been unmatched by another human since.

A: So you are saying that sinless Adam's light was less than the candlelight of true believers such as Enoch. But the light of converted Adam was the brightest of any human ever. Did I understand you correctly?

Level of maturity - "shineth more and more unto the perfect day." Adam matured in the fruit of the Spirit as he aged. He was not as mature before he fell as he was the day he died.

Didn't you say that sinless Adam's righteousness and holiness were acceptable to God without a Mediator? But you also agreed that true believers' righteousness and holiness need a Mediator to be acceptable to God.

Now you are saying that repentant Adam was more mature than sinless Adam. Yet, repentant Adam needed mediation while sinless Adam did not. So what did repentant Adam need mediation for?

Your initial answer was that Jesus was very bright. But now it seems you're contradicting yourself. Please explain. Thanks.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #164950
05/13/14 07:54 AM
05/13/14 07:54 AM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
The quality of the fruit of the Spirit is same at all times in all ages. The fruit of the Spirit is the fruit of the Spirit. The channel through which it flows does not change the fact it is the fruit of the Spirit.

You keep going to that, but nobody is disputing that. It would be akin to me continually repeating that apple trees bear apples. True, but irrelevant to the topic at hand.

The question is, what is defiling the good works of true believers? You have yet to touch it with a 10-foot pole. I thought you were going somewhere definite with the "Jesus is brighter" idea, but that seems to have imploded upon closer inspection.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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