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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: asygo] #164984
05/14/14 05:11 PM
05/14/14 05:11 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: asygo
Is our sinful human nature corrupted? If so, is that the nature you believe Jesus had?

Is "sinful flesh" and "corrupt channels of humanity" one and the same thing? If so, does that mean "righteousness and true holiness" flows through "sinful flesh" "pure and holy and undefiled"? Is it possible they are not one and the same thing?

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #164985
05/14/14 05:20 PM
05/14/14 05:20 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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I keep reposting this hoping you guys will reply. But apparently not. In light of the fact true, genuine, thoroughly converted Christians are, like Jesus, dead to sin and free of selfishness, it stands to reason denying self "as did Christ" means refusing to do anything contrary to the will of God.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. The following passages describe what it means to be a true believer:

Quote:
[God] abhors all selfishness and covetousness. {OHC 225.2}

All selfishness comes from Satan. {LHU 292.2}

Christ strikes at the root of all selfishness. {5T 204.2}

All selfishness must be cut out by the roots. {RC 287.6}

Our souls must be purified from all selfishness; for God desires to use His people as representatives of the heavenly kingdom. {6T 190.3}

The true Christian banishes all selfishness from his heart. . . . The true Christian works unselfishly and untiringly for the Master. {OHC 287}

Bible conversion will lead to constant and abiding activity, which will be free from all selfishness, all self-exaltation, and all boastful claims of holiness. {SD 334.3}

But few have a true sense of what is comprised in the word Christian. It is to be Christlike, to do others good, to be divested of all selfishness, and to have our lives marked with acts of disinterested benevolence. {2T 331.1}

For "if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." That which was objectionable in the character is purified from the soul by the love of Jesus. All selfishness is expelled, all envy, all evil-speaking, is rooted out, and a radical transformation is wrought in the heart. "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." "The fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace. {RH, July 22, 1890 par. 15}

Christ lives in them, and the power of His Spirit attends their efforts. They realize that they are to live in this world the life that Jesus lived--a life free from all selfishness; and He enables them to bear witness for Him that draws souls to the cross of Calvary.--ST, Apr. 9, 1902.{DG 81.4}

No one can be omnipotent, but all can cleanse themselves from filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of the Lord. God requires every soul to be pure and holy. We have hereditary tendencies to wrong. This is a part of self that no one need carry about. It is a weakness of humanity to pet selfishness, because it is a natural trait of character. But unless all selfishness is put away, unless self is crucified, we can never be holy as God is holy. There is in humanity a tendency to suspicious imagining, which circumstances quicken into lively growth. If this trait is indulged, it spoils the character and ruins the soul. {FLB 140.4}

In light of the insightful descriptions posted above, what does it mean to "deny self as did Christ"?

Quote:
If we are indeed to overcome as Christ overcame, that we may mingle with the bloodwashed, glorified company before the throne of God, it is of the highest importance that we become acquainted with the life of our Redeemer and deny self as did Christ. We must meet temptations and overcome obstacles, and through toil and suffering in the name of Jesus overcome as he overcame. The great trial of Christ in the wilderness on the point of appetite was to leave man an example of self-denial. {RH, October 13, 1874}

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #164986
05/14/14 05:29 PM
05/14/14 05:29 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Jesus, like a born-again believer, fought the "greatest battle"

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Christ bore the sins and infirmities of the race as they existed when he came to the earth to help man. In behalf of the race, with the weaknesses of fallen man upon him, he was to stand the temptations of Satan upon all points wherewith man would be assailed. {RH, July 28, 1874 par. 3}

Those who claim that it was not possible for Christ to sin, cannot believe that He really took upon Himself human nature. But was not Christ actually tempted, not only by Satan in the wilderness, but all through His life, from childhood to manhood? Our Saviour took humanity, with all its liabilities. He took the nature of man, with the possibility of yielding to temptation. We have nothing to bear which He has not endured. {FLB 48}

Quote:
The warfare against self is the greatest battle that was ever fought. The yielding of self, surrendering all to the will of God, requires a struggle; but the soul must submit to God before it can be renewed in holiness. {SC 43.3}

The warfare against self is the greatest battle that was ever fought. The yielding of self, surrendering all to the will of God and being clothed with humility, possessing that love that is pure, peaceable, and easy to be entreated, full of gentleness and good fruits, is not an easy attainment. And yet it is his privilege and his duty to be a perfect overcomer here. The soul must submit to God before it can be renewed in knowledge and true holiness. {3T 106.2}

The Christian life is a battle and a march. But the victory to be gained is not won by human power. The field of conflict is the domain of the heart. The battle which we have to fight--the greatest battle that was ever fought by man--is the surrender of self to the will of God, the yielding of the heart to the sovereignty of love. The old nature, born of blood and of the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up. {MB 141.2}

He who determines to enter the spiritual kingdom will find that all the powers and passions of an unregenerate nature, backed by the forces of the kingdom of darkness, are arrayed against him. Selfishness and pride will make a stand against anything that would show them to be sinful. We cannot, of ourselves, conquer the evil desires and habits that strive for the mastery. We cannot overcome the mighty foe who holds us in his thrall. God alone can give us the victory. He desires us to have the mastery over ourselves, our own will and ways. But He cannot work in us without our consent and co-operation. The divine Spirit works through the faculties and powers given to man. Our energies are required to co-operate with God. {MB 141.3}

Jesus Himself, while He dwelt among men, was often in prayer. Our Saviour identified Himself with our needs and weakness, in that He became a suppliant, a petitioner, seeking from His Father fresh supplies of strength, that He might come forth braced for duty and trial. He is our example in all things. He is a brother in our infirmities, "in all points tempted like as we are;" but as the sinless one His nature recoiled from evil; He endured struggles and torture of soul in a world of sin. His humanity made prayer a necessity and a privilege. He found comfort and joy in communion with His Father. And if the Saviour of men, the Son of God, felt the need of prayer, how much more should feeble, sinful mortals feel the necessity of fervent, constant prayer. {SC 93.4}

As a man, Jesus also fought "the greatest battle" - else He is not our Example "in all things". Listen:

Quote:
As one of us He was to give an example of obedience. For this He took upon Himself our nature, and passed through our experiences. "In all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren." Hebrews 2:17. If we had to bear anything which Jesus did not endure, then upon this point Satan would represent the power of God as insufficient for us. Therefore Jesus was "in all points tempted like as we are." Hebrews 4:15. He endured every trial to which we are subject. And He exercised in His own behalf no power that is not freely offered to us. As man, He met temptation, and overcame in the strength given Him from God. He says, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God: yea, Thy law is within My heart." Psalm 40:8. As He went about doing good, and healing all who were afflicted by Satan, He made plain to men the character of God's law and the nature of His service. His life testifies that it is possible for us also to obey the law of God. {DA 24.2}

"If we had to bear anything which Jesus did not endure, then upon this point Satan would represent the power of God as insufficient for us." To say Jesus did not fight "the greatest battle" is to "destroy the completeness of His humanity". Again, listen:

Quote:
Bear in mind that Christ's overcoming and obedience is that of a true human being. In our conclusions, we make many mistakes because of our erroneous views of the human nature of our Lord. When we give to His human nature a power that it is not possible for man to have in his conflicts with Satan, we destroy the completeness of His humanity. His imputed grace and power He gives to all who receive Him by faith. The obedience of Christ to His Father was the same obedience that is required of man. {3SM 139.4}

Man cannot overcome Satan's temptations without divine power to combine with His instrumentality. So with Jesus Christ, He could lay hold of divine power. He came not to our world to give the obedience of a lesser God to a greater, but as a man to obey God's Holy Law, and in this way He is our example. {3SM 140.1}

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #164987
05/14/14 05:31 PM
05/14/14 05:31 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Jesus is the second Adam. "His spiritual nature was free from every taint of sin." However, unlike Adam, He took upon His sinless nature our weak, fallen, sinful, suffering human nature, degraded and defiled by sin. He took humanity, with all its liabilities. He endured all the temptations wherewith man is beset. We have nothing to bear which He has not endured. He assumed human nature with its temptations. He felt the overwhelming tide of woe that deluged the world. He realized the strength of indulged appetite and of unholy passion that controlled the world. "In all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren." Hebrews 2:17. Not in some things, or most things, but "in all things". "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same". Hebrews 2:14.

They are "like Christ--pure, undefiled, wholly acceptable to God, without spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing. {6BC 1118.4}

If you will only watch, continually watch unto prayer, if you will do everything as if you were in the immediate presence of God, you will be saved from yielding to temptation and may hope to be kept pure, spotless, and undefiled till the last. {AH 338.2}

Through being partakers of the divine nature we may stand pure and holy and undefiled. {6MR 112.2}

Everyone who by faith obeys God's commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. {HP 146.5}

"Every good tree bringeth forth good fruit . . . A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit."

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Rosangela] #164990
05/14/14 07:06 PM
05/14/14 07:06 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
APL,
Christ took our sinful nature in the physical aspect, not in the moral aspect. While we are born with propensities of disobedience, "not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity" (5BC 1128).
I agree, that Christ "never participated" in our sin. As for his propensity, we have been around that one. The quote comes from the Baker letter, and it should be read in context.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: asygo] #164991
05/14/14 07:09 PM
05/14/14 07:09 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: asygo
APL,

Is our sinful human nature corrupted? If so, is that the nature you believe Jesus had?
It is written:
Hebrews 2:14-18
14 For as much then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For truly he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Why in all things it behooved him to be made like to his brothers, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself has suffered being tempted, he is able to succor them that are tempted.

2 Corinthians 5:21
21 For he has made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Romans 8:3-4
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #164994
05/14/14 10:11 PM
05/14/14 10:11 PM
asygo  Offline
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APL, that's good, but ambiguous. So you say Jesus' nature was exactly the same as Abraham's nature. EJ Waggoner described it as, "No man can change his own nature so that good thoughts will come naturally from the heart in the place of evil thoughts; no man has power to resist the fierce temptations that come through the lusts of his own heart, and that have been strengthened by long practice." {March 11, 1889 EJW, SITI 150.18} This is the nature you say Jesus had.

In short, you are saying that our natures are corrupt, and so was Christ's. Is that right?

"Yes and yes" would have been easier.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #164995
05/14/14 10:12 PM
05/14/14 10:12 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: asygo
M: Nevertheless, "passing through the corrupt channels of humanity" the fruit of abiding in Jesus is "defiled" - it lacks merit.

A: Did sinless Adam have merit? Was his obedience meritorious such that it didn't need Christ's Blue Bonnet?

Merit was not an issue before Adam sinned. Our "righteousness and true holiness," although "pure and holy and undefiled," requires the mediatorial merits of Jesus to be acceptable. Why? Because it passes "through the corrupt channels of humanity".

Why do the corrupt channels of humanity require Christ's merit, but sinless Adam did not? What's the difference? Didn't you say that born-again believers are just like sinless Adam?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: asygo] #164997
05/14/14 10:38 PM
05/14/14 10:38 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: asygo
Why do the corrupt channels of humanity require Christ's merit, but sinless Adam did not? What's the difference? Didn't you say that born-again believers are just like sinless Adam?

Actually, it was Jesus who said - "Every good tree bringeth forth good fruit . . . A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit." And it was Ellen White who said - "Everyone who by faith obeys God's commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. {HP 146.5}

She also said - They are "like Christ--pure, undefiled, wholly acceptable to God, without spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing. {6BC 1118.4} We "may hope to be kept pure, spotless, and undefiled till the last. {AH 338.2} Through being partakers of the divine nature we may stand pure and holy and undefiled. {6MR 112.2}

Nevertheless, the "righteousness and true holiness" that flows through the "corrupt channels of humanity" is "defiled" and ascends "not in spotless purity". In light of the passages quoted above (and many others throughout this thread) it is obvious the "pure and holy and undefiled" fruit of abiding in Jesus is not "defiled" by sin or sinning.

Although the fruit of abiding in Jesus is "pure, undefiled, wholly acceptable to God, without spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing" it requires the perfume of Jesus' mediatorial merits. Perfume does not purify sin. Jesus doesn't blend our sin and His righteousness to make the fruit of abiding in Jesus acceptable.

You asked - "Why do the corrupt channels of humanity require Christ's merit"? I suspect you mean - Why does the fruit flowing through the corrupt channels of humanity require Christ's merit? If that's what you meant, it is because nothing we do is meritorious. Good works cannot atone for past sins.

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #164998
05/14/14 10:40 PM
05/14/14 10:40 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: asygo
Is our sinful human nature corrupted? If so, is that the nature you believe Jesus had?

Is "sinful flesh" and "corrupt channels of humanity" one and the same thing? If so, does that mean "righteousness and true holiness" flows through "sinful flesh" "pure and holy and undefiled"? Is it possible they are not one and the same thing?

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