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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: asygo] #164959
05/13/14 05:40 PM
05/13/14 05:40 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: asygo
Didn't you say that sinless Adam's righteousness and holiness were acceptable to God without a Mediator? But you also agreed that true believers' righteousness and holiness need a Mediator to be acceptable to God. Now you are saying that repentant Adam was more mature than sinless Adam. Yet, repentant Adam needed mediation while sinless Adam did not. So what did repentant Adam need mediation for? Your initial answer was that Jesus was very bright. But now it seems you're contradicting yourself. Please explain. Thanks.

The question is, what is defiling the good works of true believers? You have yet to touch it with a 10-foot pole. I thought you were going somewhere definite with the "Jesus is brighter" idea, but that seems to have imploded upon closer inspection.

Adam's fall did not prevent him from continuing to mature in the fruit of the Spirit. Adam was more mature at 100 than he was at 10. His fruit shone more brightly. But, as you pointed out, his post-fall "righteousness and true holiness" was "defiled" and required Jesus' mediation to be acceptable. We know from the Bible and the SOP it is not sin or sinning that defiles the righteous results of abiding in Jesus. The fruit of walking in the Spirit is "pure and holy and undefiled." "Every good tree bringeth forth good fruit . . . A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit." Nevertheless, "passing through the corrupt channels of humanity" the fruit of abiding in Jesus is "defiled" - it lacks merit.

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #164960
05/13/14 05:47 PM
05/13/14 05:47 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. The following passages describe what it means to be a true believer:

Quote:
[God] abhors all selfishness and covetousness. {OHC 225.2}

All selfishness comes from Satan. {LHU 292.2}

Christ strikes at the root of all selfishness. {5T 204.2}

All selfishness must be cut out by the roots. {RC 287.6}

Our souls must be purified from all selfishness; for God desires to use His people as representatives of the heavenly kingdom. {6T 190.3}

The true Christian banishes all selfishness from his heart. . . . The true Christian works unselfishly and untiringly for the Master. {OHC 287}

Bible conversion will lead to constant and abiding activity, which will be free from all selfishness, all self-exaltation, and all boastful claims of holiness. {SD 334.3}

But few have a true sense of what is comprised in the word Christian. It is to be Christlike, to do others good, to be divested of all selfishness, and to have our lives marked with acts of disinterested benevolence. {2T 331.1}

For "if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." That which was objectionable in the character is purified from the soul by the love of Jesus. All selfishness is expelled, all envy, all evil-speaking, is rooted out, and a radical transformation is wrought in the heart. "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." "The fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace. {RH, July 22, 1890 par. 15}

Christ lives in them, and the power of His Spirit attends their efforts. They realize that they are to live in this world the life that Jesus lived--a life free from all selfishness; and He enables them to bear witness for Him that draws souls to the cross of Calvary.--ST, Apr. 9, 1902.{DG 81.4}

No one can be omnipotent, but all can cleanse themselves from filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of the Lord. God requires every soul to be pure and holy. We have hereditary tendencies to wrong. This is a part of self that no one need carry about. It is a weakness of humanity to pet selfishness, because it is a natural trait of character. But unless all selfishness is put away, unless self is crucified, we can never be holy as God is holy. There is in humanity a tendency to suspicious imagining, which circumstances quicken into lively growth. If this trait is indulged, it spoils the character and ruins the soul. {FLB 140.4}

In light of the insightful descriptions posted above, what does it mean to "deny self as did Christ"?

Quote:
If we are indeed to overcome as Christ overcame, that we may mingle with the bloodwashed, glorified company before the throne of God, it is of the highest importance that we become acquainted with the life of our Redeemer and deny self as did Christ. We must meet temptations and overcome obstacles, and through toil and suffering in the name of Jesus overcome as he overcame. The great trial of Christ in the wilderness on the point of appetite was to leave man an example of self-denial. {RH, October 13, 1874}

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #164965
05/13/14 08:27 PM
05/13/14 08:27 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Nevertheless, "passing through the corrupt channels of humanity" the fruit of abiding in Jesus is "defiled" - it lacks merit.

Did sinless Adam have merit? Was his obedience meritorious such that it didn't need Christ's Blue Bonnet?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #164971
05/13/14 11:30 PM
05/13/14 11:30 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.

What is the evidence of this?

Reminding you of this again, Christ denied self in heaven:

"Let us learn what it means to deny self as Christ denied self. He laid aside all that He had with the Father, and clothing His divinity with humanity came to earth that He might teach men and women how they might overcome. We are living in a time of test. Shall we not decide to stand on the side of Christ in this matter?" {2SAT 319.2}

But EGW never said He had to crucify or subdue His sinful self:

Christ did not need to fast for forty days because of inward corruption, or to subdue self. He was sinless. It was on our account that He fasted. He had been exalted by God, but He humbled Himself, and when He could have taken advantage of circumstances to favor Himself, He did not do this.” {21MR 11.4}

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Rosangela] #164972
05/13/14 11:45 PM
05/13/14 11:45 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.

What is the evidence of this?

Reminding you of this again, Christ denied self in heaven:

"Let us learn what it means to deny self as Christ denied self. He laid aside all that He had with the Father, and clothing His divinity with humanity came to earth that He might teach men and women how they might overcome. We are living in a time of test. Shall we not decide to stand on the side of Christ in this matter?" {2SAT 319.2}

But EGW never said He had to crucify or subdue His sinful self:

Christ did not need to fast for forty days because of inward corruption, or to subdue self. He was sinless. It was on our account that He fasted. He had been exalted by God, but He humbled Himself, and when He could have taken advantage of circumstances to favor Himself, He did not do this.” {21MR 11.4}


This is exactly what God has had me say here over and over a dozen different ways.

The worst thing Mt Man has said on this is that Jesus "had sin in His sinful flesh" He will never produce one quote that even comes close to saying Christ did have sinful flesh but instead he keeps quoting texts that point to Fallen men and saying it also applies to Jesus.

Mt Man how do you explain this?

"Christ could have done nothing during His earthly ministry in saving fallen man if the divine had not been blended with the human. The limited capacity of man cannot define this wonderful mystery—the blending of the two natures, the divine and the human. It can never be explained. Man must wonder and be silent. And yet man is privileged to be a partaker of the divine nature, and in this way he can to some degree enter into the mystery (Letter 5, 1889).{7BC 904.5}

We must wonder and keep silent but you totally discount this advice and keep being insolent.

We should NEVER present Christ as a man with sinful propensities, but you just keep asserting you are right like you are above reproof on any subject.

He will not be counselled here.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #164973
05/14/14 12:55 AM
05/14/14 12:55 AM
APL  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
By His life and His death, Christ has achieved even more than recovery from the ruin wrought through sin. It was Satan’s purpose to bring about an eternal separation between God and man; but in Christ we become more closely united to God than if we had never fallen. In taking our nature [sinful fallen nature], the Saviour has bound Himself to humanity by a tie that is never to be broken. Through the eternal ages He is linked with us. “God so loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son.” John 3:16. He gave Him not only to bear our sins, and to die as our sacrifice; He gave Him to the fallen race. To assure us of His immutable counsel of peace, God gave His only-begotten Son to become one of the human family, forever to retain His human nature. This is the pledge that God will fulfill His word. “Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder.” God has adopted human nature [sinful fallen nature] in the person of His Son, and has carried the same into the highest heaven [after purging our sin]. It is the “Son of man” who shares the throne of the universe. It is the “Son of man” whose name shall be called, “Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.” Isaiah 9:6. The I AM is the Daysman between God and humanity, laying His hand upon both. He who is “holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners,” is not ashamed to call us brethren. Hebrews 7:26; Hebrews 2:11. In Christ the family of earth and the family of heaven are bound together. Christ glorified is our brother. Heaven is enshrined in humanity, and humanity is enfolded in the bosom of Infinite Love. {DA 25.3}

John 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

Jesus, considered as a man, was perfect, yet He grew in grace. Luke 2:52 : "And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man." Even the most perfect Christian may increase continually in the knowledge and love of God. {1T 339.8}

Hebrews 5:8-9 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation to all them that obey him;

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #164974
05/14/14 01:54 AM
05/14/14 01:54 AM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
APL,
Christ took our sinful nature in the physical aspect, not in the moral aspect. While we are born with propensities of disobedience, "not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity" (5BC 1128).

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #164975
05/14/14 02:19 AM
05/14/14 02:19 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
APL,

Is our sinful human nature corrupted? If so, is that the nature you believe Jesus had?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: asygo] #164981
05/14/14 04:58 PM
05/14/14 04:58 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
M: Nevertheless, "passing through the corrupt channels of humanity" the fruit of abiding in Jesus is "defiled" - it lacks merit.

A: Did sinless Adam have merit? Was his obedience meritorious such that it didn't need Christ's Blue Bonnet?

Merit was not an issue before Adam sinned. Our "righteousness and true holiness," although "pure and holy and undefiled," requires the mediatorial merits of Jesus to be acceptable. Why? Because it passes "through the corrupt channels of humanity".

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Rosangela] #164983
05/14/14 05:07 PM
05/14/14 05:07 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
M: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.

R: What is the evidence of this?

The fact they must deny self like Jesus denied self. The comparison and command is proof. Born-again believers, like Jesus, are free of sinful self. Therefore, denying self like Jesus did must necessarily mean refusing to do anything contrary to the will of God. It also includes resisting, rejecting the lusts, desires, affections, clamorings of sinful flesh.

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