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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: dedication] #165004
05/14/14 11:54 PM
05/14/14 11:54 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Rom 7:23 making me captive to the law of sin
Rom 8:2 has set you free from the law of sin

So your contention is that Paul is describing the same person in the two verses?
Either you are captive or you are free. It cannot be both.

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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: dedication] #165005
05/14/14 11:56 PM
05/14/14 11:56 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
I see you guys did not address the EGW quotes I posted.

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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: dedication] #165007
05/15/14 12:19 AM
05/15/14 12:19 AM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
I guess it depends on whether or not the born-again believer is consciously, deliberately choosing to abide in Jesus, to walk in the Spirit. Neglecting to abide in Jesus results in dethroning the Holy Spirit. Without the indwelling presence of the Holy, they cannot resist sin, self, or Satan. Without the Holy Spirit, they are as powerless as unbelievers. They are incapable of imitating the example of Jesus. They must continually, moment by moment, choose Jesus. Otherwise, by default, they fail and fall.

Galatians
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

I understand that; but that doesn't answer my question, "Are you therefore walking continually IN AND OUT 'of the Spirit' during the course of the day?"

Are you ALWAYS IN THE SPIRIT? OR does the Spirit come to and go from you many times during the day?

///

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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: dedication] #165010
05/15/14 01:45 AM
05/15/14 01:45 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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James, the Holy Spirit cannot dwell within people who are not consciously, continually choosing to abide in Jesus. Repentance restores the relationship sin severs. So, yes, it means the Holy Spirit is in and out. His location, however, does not undo rebirth or the maturation achieved while abiding in Jesus. Of course, if the Holy Spirit is forced out for a long period of time, ground gained is lost and rebirth is necessary.

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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: Rosangela] #165011
05/15/14 01:49 AM
05/15/14 01:49 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Rom 7:23 making me captive to the law of sin. Rom 8:2 has set you free from the law of sin. So your contention is that Paul is describing the same person in the two verses? Either you are captive or you are free. It cannot be both.

Adam sold out the human race. We are captive in sinful flesh until the day Jesus returns and replaces it with sinless flesh. However, in Christ, we are free from sin. We are also free to sin (before rebirth we cannot not sin).

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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: Rosangela] #165012
05/15/14 02:00 AM
05/15/14 02:00 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Take a look at these quotes. The first part of Romans 7 speaks about Paul's conversion:

The apostle Paul, in relating his experience, presents an important truth concerning the work to be wrought in conversion. He says, "I was alive without the law once,"--he felt no condemnation; "but when the commandment came," when the law of God was urged upon his conscience, "sin revived, and I died." [Romans 7:9.] Then he saw himself a sinner, condemned by the divine law. Mark, it was Paul, and not the law, that died. He says, further, "I had not known sin, but by the law; for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet." [Romans 7:7.] "The commandment which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death." [Romans 7:10.] The law which promised life to the obedient, pronounced death upon the transgressor. "Wherefore," he says, "the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." [Romans 7:12.] {4SP 297.1}


But here EGW seems to imply that in the second part of Romans 7 Paul is still speaking about his conversion:

It is not enough to perceive the loving-kindness of God, to see the benevolence, the fatherly tenderness, of His character. It is not enough to discern the wisdom and justice of His law, to see that it is founded upon the eternal principle of love. Paul the apostle saw all this when he exclaimed, "I consent unto the law that it is good." "The law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." But he added, in the bitterness of his soul-anguish and despair, "I am carnal, sold under sin." Romans 7:16, 12, 14. He longed for the purity, the righteousness, to which in himself he was powerless to attain, and cried out, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from this body of death?" Romans 7:24, margin. Such is the cry that has gone up from burdened hearts in all lands and in all ages. To all, there is but one answer, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. {SC 19.1}

"I am carnal, sold under sin." Adam sold out the human race. It is universally true. "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from this body of death?" This is the language of both the saved and the unsaved. It is a timeless truth. "Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me (that is, in my flesh)". The "flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God." "Do it" refers to the lusts, desires, affections, clamorings of sinful flesh tempting us from within to be unlike Jesus.

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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: Mountain Man] #165018
05/15/14 10:00 AM
05/15/14 10:00 AM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
James, the Holy Spirit cannot dwell within people who are not consciously, continually choosing to abide in Jesus. Repentance restores the relationship sin severs. So, yes, it means the Holy Spirit is in and out. His location, however, does not undo rebirth or the maturation achieved while abiding in Jesus. Of course, if the Holy Spirit is forced out for a long period of time, ground gained is lost and rebirth is necessary.

That's not true.

1. The Holy Spirit pleads with us to do what is right; and leaves ONLY when there is no hope of our reconciliation to Him. The very way Jesus walked with His disciples (broken and imperfect as they were - for He even partook of the Last Supper with Judas) was illustrative of the Holy Spirit dwelling with us and in us. There is no coming and going, staying and leaving: but rather, an earnest whisper always near us to walk in the path of righteousness. For this reason many are not cut down when they turn away, and many repent weeping.

2. When Paul speaks of walking in the Spirit (Gal. 5:16), he is merely saying that we should obey God. The "Spirit" there is the word of God, so that we live ACCORDING to the truth contained in the Bible. He urges us to do what is right always, to seek the company of the righteous, to rejoice in The Lord, "to dwell in His sanctuary", as it were.

Paul is NOT talking about a spirit coming and going, or sinless perfectionism or the nature of man and of Christ. He is rather advocating a consistently Christian life-style whose enjoyment, hope and end is eternal life with God in the age to come, even as we fight the good fight here in this world, falling and rising, bruised and calloused, broken yet hopeful.

As it is written, "You shall love The Lord with all your heart and with all your mind; and your neighbour as yourself. Upon these two hang all that God has ever said or shown to us in the Scriptures."

///


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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: dedication] #165022
05/15/14 04:28 PM
05/15/14 04:28 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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James, it looks like we disagree on a fundamental truth.

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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: Mountain Man] #165032
05/15/14 09:53 PM
05/15/14 09:53 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
James, it looks like we disagree on a fundamental truth.

That is because you do NOT know God; but have buried your head in many books other than His WORD. Indeed, GOD Himself said, "I will NEVER leave you nor forsake you."

Deuteronomy 31:6, "Be strong and of good courage, do not fear nor be afraid of them; for the Lord your God, He is the One who goes with you. He will not leave you nor forsake you." Deuteronomy 31:8, "And the Lord, He is the One who goes before you. He will be with you, He will not leave you nor forsake you; do not fear nor be dismayed." Joshua 1:5, "No man shall be able to stand before you all the days of your life; as I was with Moses, so I will be with you. I will not leave you nor forsake you." 1 Kings 8:57, "May the Lord our God be with us, as He was with our fathers. May He not leave us nor forsake us." 1 Chronicles 28:20, "And David said to his son Solomon, 'Be strong and of good courage, and do it; do not fear nor be dismayed, for the Lord God—my God—will be with you. He will not leave you nor forsake you, until you have finished all the work for the service of the house of the Lord.'" Psalm 27:9, "Do not hide Your face from me; Do not turn Your servant away in anger; You have been my help; Do not leave me nor forsake me, O God of my salvation." Hebrews 13:5, "Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, 'I will never leave you nor forsake you.'"

Do you know what is love; and the love with which He loves us? Have you ever heard Him speak? Did you ever meet him and sat and spoke with Him? DO YOU KNOW HIM AT ALL? See, it is written of Him:

Originally Posted By: Exodus 34
Now the Lord descended in the cloud and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord. And the Lord passed before him and proclaimed, "The Lord, the Lord God, merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abounding in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children’s children to the third and the fourth generation."

So Moses made haste and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshiped. Then he said, "If now I have found grace in Your sight, O Lord, let my Lord, I pray, go among us, even though we are a stiff-necked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us as Your inheritance."

And He said: "Behold, I make a covenant. Before all your people I will do marvels such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation; and all the people among whom you are shall see the work of the Lord. For it is an awesome thing that I will do with you .... "


///

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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: dedication] #165034
05/16/14 03:09 AM
05/16/14 03:09 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Yes, I do know Jesus.

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