Mt Man said;

"Sinless Adam is not relevant here. It's all about merit. "Then, perfumed with the merits of Christ's propitiation, the incense comes up before God wholly and entirely acceptable." Merit makes the difference. It is added. Sin is not covered, clothed, or removed. Sin is not a part of it. It is "pure and holy and undefiled".

The Lord's Servant said;

"The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary, but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity, they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God. They ascend not in spotless purity, and unless the Intercessor, who is at God’s right hand, presents and purifies all by His righteousness, it is not acceptable to God. All incense from earthly tabernacles must be moist with the cleansing drops of the blood of Christ. He holds before the Father the censer of His own merits, in which there is no taint of earthly corruption. He gathers into this censer the prayers, the praise, and the confessions of His people, and with these He puts His own spotless righteousness. Then, perfumed with the merits of Christ’s propitiation, the incense comes up before God wholly and entirely acceptable. Then gracious answers are returned.—(Selected Messages 1:344.) {Pr 117.2}

But if the prayers through "corrupt channels of humanity" are unacceptable to God, then how were the prayers of Jesus acceptable to the Father if as you claim Jesus had "sin in His sinful flesh" and He himself was a corrupt channel of humanity? Your own quote proves your comprehension of this issue is flawed. Of course you didn't quote the condemning portion of the quote, only what you believed satisfied your interpretation of truth.

Let's for a moment evaluate the quote you selectively administered. The crux of the quote is not in the word "Merit" as you incorrectly determined, it is in the word "propitiation". "Then, perfumed with the merits of Christ’s propitiation, the incense comes up before God wholly and entirely acceptable."

"Propitiation" is the satisfying of the wrath of God. Jesus became sin for us, "in the heart of the earth" for "three days and three nights" and from Gethsemane to the cross stood in our place in the second death so He could satisfy the Wrath of the Father against sin. Ex. 32:11–14; Num. 25:8, 11; Josh. 7:25–26. Accepting the second death Jesus went through for us is gaining the MERITS of Christs "propitiation".

Then after the wrath of the Father against our sins was satisfied by Christ suffering His wrath for us, then the "expiation" begins. "Expiation" is the individual removal of sins, blotting them out of our record and Character.

"There is a blessing pronounced upon all who mourn. Had there been no mourners in our world, Christ could not have revealed the parental character of God. Those oppressed by the conviction of sin are to know the blessedness of forgiveness and to have their transgressions blotted out. Had there been none who mourn, the sufficiency of Christ’s expiation for sin would not have been understood.—Signs of the Times, August 8, 1895.{FH 187.8}

"Blessed are they that mourn for they shall be comforted".

To mourn for our sins is vitally important so the expiation (cleansing/ blotting out) of sins can be understood and administered.

There is a divine catch 22. We cannot stand before the Father with sin on our souls or we would be destroyed. First the sin must be removed, then you can stand before the Father. But how can He hear our pleas to be cleansed from sin if we are corrupted by sin?

When faith in the merits of Christs propitiation is mixed with our prayers, that is when they are heard, and the Father answers our prayers to expiate our sins. That is why it is so vitally important to understand how Jesus stood before the wrath of the Father for us in Gethsemane. This is what God has shown me so perfectly, and it is what you seem set on arguing against.

You said "Sin is not covered, clothed, or removed".

This shows what you lack in this knowledge.

"All that man can possibly do toward his own salvation is to accept the invitation, “Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely” (Revelation 22:17). No sin can be committed by man for which satisfaction has not been met on Calvary. Thus the cross, in earnest appeals, continually proffers to the sinner a thorough expiation.{1SM 343.3}



The propitiation the TAKING AWAY OF THE WRATH OF THE FATHER so the EXPIATION can occur. It is when our sins were placed on the Head of Jesus. When Jesus was in Gethsemane He took our sins on His head and carried them to the cross so He could die with them to destroy death.

Mt Man I pray for you, I truly hope you see where you are failing to grasp the Spirit of God and His counsel.

And just so no one misunderstands what I was trying to say...

"Prayer (of itself) is not an expiation for sin; it has no virtue or merit of itself. All the flowery words at our command are not equivalent to one holy desire. The most eloquent prayers are but idle words if they do not express the true sentiments of the heart. But the prayer that comes from an earnest heart, when the simple wants of the soul are expressed, as we would ask an earthly friend for a favor, expecting it to be granted—this is the prayer of faith. God does not desire our ceremonial compliments, but the unspoken cry of the heart broken and subdued with a sense of its sin and utter weakness finds its way to the Father of all mercy.—(Thoughts from the Mount of Blessing, 86, 87.) {Pr 60.4}

So when we see ourselves as we really are and realize our need for a savior and we accept the propitiation of Christ, who stood before the wrath of the Father for us, then we can come boldly before the throne of Grace and through the merits of that propitiation, our FAITHFUL prayers for the expiation, or removal of sins are answered.

True faith is comprehending the love of the Father and His will for us to be saved. When we accept His will and ask Him as a friend for the expiation of sin this is the prayer that is answered immediately. And if we walk in that light and hold on to the strength of God we will never fall to that sin again. He will continually reveal deeper and deeper elements of our fallen nature that needs to be overcome and this pattern of faithful humility will sanctify us into the perfect image of Christ.

This IS the atonement.

The sinner had to place his hands on the head of the sacrifice and confess his sins, and then they were transferred to the head of the sacrifice and then transferred to the mercy seat "covering" of the Ark of the covenant.

So expiation is the cleansing half of propitiation.

If there is anyone who wants to know more about this subject please read this blog.

http://redheifersbloodysweat.blogspot.com/2011/12/red-heifer.html

Mark 9:50 Salt is good

Genesis 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:21 So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

By your hermeneutic, these texts prove that dry land, the seas, grass, trees, fruits, the sun, the moon, fish, whales, and birds are all made of salt - they are just the same according to scripture.

This is the lesson of the lobster: just because two things are the same in some characteristic doesn't mean they are the same in all characteristics. Unless you see that, you could just as easily say that the disciples are just like 5 loaves and two fish.

And if you continue to throw out everything that you don't agree with as irrelevant, you will never learn anything new. You will be fully convinced, but never fully correct.

I did not say that. Please check you facts.


I did not say that. Please check your facts.


I'm talking about the righteous results of abiding in Jesus. They are not stained with sin. Jesus does not cover or clothe sin-stained "righteousness and true holiness" with His robe of righteousness. Nor does He remove the stain of sin on "righteousness and true holiness". The fact is "righteousness and true holiness" (the fruit of abiding in Jesus) is not stained with sin. It simply lacks merit.

Merit was not an issue before Adam sinned. Merit did not become an issue until after Adam sinned.


The righteous results of abiding in Jesus are pure, holy, harmless, undefiled, wholly acceptable to God, without spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing. However, passing through corrupt human channels it lacks merit and, as such, it is defiled and unacceptable (not sin-stained). It requires the meritorious righteousness of Jesus. His righteousness makes "righteousness and true holiness" (the fruit of abiding in Jesus) meritorious and acceptable.

His meritorious righteousness:

1) doesn't change "righteousness and true holiness" (the fruit of abiding in Jesus) from sin to righteousness.

2) doesn't cover or clothe "righteousness and true holiness" (the fruit of abiding in Jesus).

3) doesn't remove sin from "righteousness and true holiness" (the fruit of abiding in Jesus).

4) simple makes "righteousness and true holiness" (the fruit of abiding in Jesus) meritorious.

Have you never wondered why merit was not an issue with sinless Adam, but is an issue now with true believers who you say are just like Jesus? What is the difference between sinless Adam and true believers? Why does one need merit but one does not?

You missed a spot. Let's go back to the source material:All incense from earthly tabernacles must be moist with the cleansing drops of the blood of Christ. He holds before the Father the censer of His own merits, in which there is no taint of earthly corruption. He gathers into this censer the prayers, the praise, and the confessions of His people, and with these He puts His own spotless righteousness. Then, perfumed with the merits of Christ's propitiation, the incense comes up before God wholly and entirely acceptable. Then gracious answers are returned. {1SM 344.2}

If everything was sinless, spotless, righteous, and holy, why is CLEANSING needed?

Here's a fact;



Here's another fact, you're in a debate with others about the issue of Jesus having "sin in His sinful flesh" and in the course of the debate you said "Those who claim that it was not possible for Christ to sin, cannot believe that He really took upon Himself human nature" and now you imply that you didn't say that is against those who believe Jesus didn't have sin in His flesh as if you are mysteriously bringing in a third party into the debate. Either you were talking about those in this conversation or you are lying right now without substantiating your stand, as if it doesn't matter for you to tell us what you did mean.

Then you completely ignore everything else that was mentioned. You couldn't possibly have really read what I spent hours praying about and wrote in the Spirit last night and still take this stand.

Let me ask you this Mt Man... was Peter abiding in Jesus during the three and a half year ministry of Jesus? Was he doing miracles in His name? But Jesus said "Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." So where was Peter at this time when Jesus said this? Was Peter cut off from Christ?

Then after the Crucifixion Peter had denied Jesus three times. Was he cut off from the righteousness of Christ before He was restored?

Then after his conversion and the outpouring of the early rain he needed to be rebuked by Paul for falling into legalism. Was Peter cut off from the early rain Holy Spirit which had already come when he sided with the Jews against the gentiles?

He still had faith, but he did fail. Then when he was converted he still sinned by thinking that the ceremonial law was still binding and acting Pius against the gentiles.

The fact is that when we come to Christ His act of Justification is immediate but sanctification can take some time. It doesn't have to, but usually it does. Jesus continues to keep our names on the books when we sin after coming to Him, He continues to pray for us and sends His Holy Spirit to guide us and lead us to pray. Peter denied Jesus but in his heart he knew he was wrong. It almost killed him it hurt so bad what he did to Jesus. He cried all the way to Gethsemane where he laid on the spot Jesus had sweat blood.

"He pressed on in solitude and darkness, he knew not and cared not whither. At last he found himself in Gethsemane. The scene of a few hours before came vividly to his mind. The suffering face of his Lord, stained with bloody sweat and convulsed with anguish, rose before him. He remembered with bitter remorse that Jesus had wept and agonized in prayer alone, while those who should have united with Him in that trying hour were sleeping. He remembered His solemn charge, “Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation.” Matthew 26:41. He witnessed again the scene in the judgment hall. It was torture to his bleeding heart to know that he had added the heaviest burden to the Saviour’s humiliation and grief. On the very spot where Jesus had poured out His soul in agony to His Father, Peter fell upon his face, and wished that he might die.{DA 713.3}

Even though Peter sinned his faith in Christ did not leave him it just had not been developed into total trust, or conversion.

1 John 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."

The main point I want to illustrate here is that you act as if it our own efforts that bring us to Christ and sustain us there. "We must be spot free to come to the Lord in prayer" is what you are saying.

By these sentiments are you converted? Does the Lord hear your prayers? Are you sin stained? Do you have sin to confess?

The Holy Spirit draws us to repent. The Apostles claimed the name of the Lord before they were converted, so Jesus said "WHEN you are converted", meaning it hadn't fully come for Peter yet and I would venture to say it had not come for ANY of the Apostles yet until after the crucifixion. They all went astray at His death. "Strike the Sheppard and the sheep will scatter".

But the Holy Spirit was till working on the heart of Peter and the Apostles trying to draw them closer to Christ. Peter had done miracles in His name but denied Him three times! In your version of truth Peter had been cut off.

"It is the Holy Spirit that imparts repentance to us. Jesus draws us to Himself through the agency of his divine Spirit; and through faith in his blood (propitiation) we are cleansed from sin: “for the blood of Jesus Christ his Son, cleanseth us from all sin” (1 John 1:7). “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (Verse 9). {3SM 196.4}
But suppose that we sin after we have been forgiven, after we have become the children of God, then need we despair?—No: for John writes: “My little children, these things I write unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous” (chap. 2:1). Jesus is in the heavenly courts, pleading with the Father in our behalf. He presents our prayers, mingling with them the precious incense of his own merit, that our prayers may be acceptable to the Father. He puts the fragrance into our prayers, and the Father hears us because we ask for the very things which we need, and we become to others a savor of life unto life.{3SM 197.1}

You rely too much on your own strength in your version of faith.

Please bear in mind it is the Bible and the SOP that says the righteousness results of abiding in Jesus are pure and holy and undefiled, etc. It is the imputed and imparted righteousness of Jesus that makes it so. The difference between sinless Adam and fallen Adam is sin and corrupt human channels.