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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: dedication] #165198
05/20/14 04:57 PM
05/20/14 04:57 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Gordon,

You said Thayer was a contemporary of the Great Advent Movement. If he was born in 1828, this means he was only 16 in 1844, and of course was neither a Greek scholar nor a Harvard graduated by then.
Gordon, if you can't trust Greek and Hebrew scholars, you can't trust any Bible version, and you must be able to read the Bible in the original languages. Even the apostles trusted the Greek scholars, as they many times relied on the text of the LXX.

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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: dedication] #165202
05/20/14 05:42 PM
05/20/14 05:42 PM
G
gordonb1  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Veteran Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 936
Quebec

Correct Rosangela - Thayer was born the year after Ellen White.
She embraced the Advent Movement which carried for decades following the Great Disappointment. (see The Great Second Advent Movement by Loughborough)

Thayer died in 1901, but did his Greek lead him into present truth?

One cannot rely upon mens' definitions (lexicons & dictionaries)
to discern Bible truth, even less so men who walk not in the light.
____________________________

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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: dedication] #165204
05/20/14 06:02 PM
05/20/14 06:02 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Gordon, Luther translated the Bible to German. His Greek and his Hebrew didn't lead him to accept the Sabbath. Yet you can't say he was lost, neither can you say his Bible version can't be trusted.
As I said, if you can't trust Greek scholars, then you must be able to read the Bible in Greek - and the Greek used in the Bible is a dead language, so you will have to learn it with a Greek scholar.

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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: dedication] #165205
05/20/14 06:22 PM
05/20/14 06:22 PM
A
Anonymous
Unregistered


As you wish Rosangela.
__________

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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: dedication] #165208
05/20/14 07:42 PM
05/20/14 07:42 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
And don't forget Charles Fitch, who never walked in the light of the sanctuary truth.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: Rosangela] #165210
05/20/14 08:26 PM
05/20/14 08:26 PM
Johann  Offline
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Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Gordon, Luther translated the Bible to German. His Greek and his Hebrew didn't lead him to accept the Sabbath. Yet you can't say he was lost, neither can you say his Bible version can't be trusted.
As I said, if you can't trust Greek scholars, then you must be able to read the Bible in Greek - and the Greek used in the Bible is a dead language, so you will have to learn it with a Greek scholar.


So true


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: Rosangela] #165213
05/20/14 09:08 PM
05/20/14 09:08 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Active Member 2019

Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
1. Thayer doesn't know what he is talking about.

I've never read anything so absurd! How long have you studied Greek? So a Greek scholar, who wrote a Greek lexicon, doesn't know what he is talking about?

Be careful ...

Quote:
Joseph Henry Thayer (November 7, 1828—November 26, 1901), US biblical scholar, was born in Boston, Massachusetts. ... Beginning in 1870, Thayer was a member of the American Bible Revision Committee and recording secretary of the New Testament company (working on the Revised Version). Thayer's chief works were his translation of Grimm's Wilke's Clavis Novi Testamenti (1886; revised 1889) as A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, and his New Testament Bibliography (1890). Thayer spent 25 years working on his Lexicon, and made thousands of revisions from Grimm's Wilke's Clavis. Rather unfortunately, Thayer's Lexicon became obsolete quickly.

Gustav Adolf Deissmann's work with the Egyptian papyri was soon to revolutionize New Testament and Koine Greek Lexicography with the publication of his: [1] Bible Studies: Contributions Chiefly from Papyri and Inscriptions to the History of the Language, the Literature, and the Religion of Hellenistic Judaism and Primitive Christianity published in 1901 (2nd edition 1909) and also, [2] Light from the Ancient East: the New Testament Illustrated by Recently Discovered Texts of the Graeco-Roman World London: Hodder & Stoughton, 1910.

These books and similar ones that followed helped confirm and sometimes correct inadequate definitions of many words in the Greek New Testament. With this new and valuable information for studying the Greek of the New Testament, Thayer's Lexicon became a victim of history, being published less than a decade before this papyri revolution.

In February 1891 Thayer published a lecture in which he expressed disagreement with the position of Biblical inerrancy, asserting that his own acceptance of various errors of history and science in the Bible did not materially detract from his belief in the overall soundness of Christianity.

---- Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Henry_Thayer


///

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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: Rosangela] #165214
05/20/14 09:45 PM
05/20/14 09:45 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Active Member 2019

Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Every sin is NOT covered by the Ten Commandments. For example, if you asked your sibling to do something for you, to which he agreed, yet reneged on his promise, he has sinned against you. That has nothing to do with the Decalogue. For him it is a sin, and a sin before you. Similarly, if you deliberately jumped a red light while driving, you are guilty of sin against society. There is no law in the Scriptures against jumping a red light, but by being granted a license to drive, you entered into an agreement to obey all the traffic laws of the land. You have sinned against the Board. That has nothing to do with the Decalogue.

Not fulfilling a promise is lying, wherher to a sister or to society; it's bearing a false witness against (to the detriment of) your neighbor. Besides, you are robbing them from the loyalty/veracity/honesty you owe to them as a fellow human being. It's easy (for those who can see the far-reaching claims of the law) to see that these are transgressions of the law.

I gave two examples. The first one, you answered. What of the second? "Similarly, if you deliberately jumped a red light while driving, you are guilty of sin against society. There is no law in the Scriptures against jumping a red light, but by being granted a license to drive, you entered into an agreement to obey all the traffic laws of the land. You have sinned against the Board. That has nothing to do with the Decalogue."

Returning to your answer to the first example: Reneging on a promise is NOT "bearing false witness against your neighbour"; and neither is it lying. You are just hell-bent on shoe-horning the action into the ninth commandment. Rather, it is causing someone to hope in vain. The LAW broken is the LAW OF LOVE which God designed to bind and strengthen relationships. A broken promise strains relationships.

The Ten Commandments merely teaches you how to love. It's fulfillment and ultimate goal is to encourage love, to lead you to the LAW OF LOVE (of which John was speaking in 1 John 3) It was this point Jesus was making when he told the rich youth, "One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me." (Mark 10:21)

Again, I direct you to Mark 3:1-6.

///

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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: asygo] #165218
05/20/14 10:13 PM
05/20/14 10:13 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
NON-SDA
Active Member 2019

Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: James Peterson
Did you read Mark 3:1-6? I don't think so. And lest you be hasty in your self-righteous judgement, consider 1 John 2:1, "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. AND IF ANY MAN SIN, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."

There's no problem with the verses. The problem is your being obnoxious and arrogant. That says much more about your teachings than the verses you cite in vain. If someone is wrong, just point it out and we can learn truth. But if you stand as an accuser of the brethren, we just learn that you're a jerk. It's up to you what you want us to learn.

Is asking that SDA do "NOT return to the vomit of pride in Sabbath-keeping", making myself an accuser of the brethren? Why do you refuse to heed the salient message in Mark 3:1-6? Sin is much more than the transgression of the Ten Commandments. It encompasses all that one may do against God or neighbour, whether it be explicitly prohibited or not. As it is written:

"Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 'Teacher, WHICH IS THE GREAT COMMANDMENT IN THE LAW?'

Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.'" (Mat. 22:35-40 cf. Mark 3:1-6)

///


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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: James Peterson] #165220
05/20/14 11:32 PM
05/20/14 11:32 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Be careful

James, Thayer's lexicon became obsolete because of new archaeological evidence which brought light upon some words, but obviously this is not the case with anomia, whose meaning has always been well known.
About the Bible, it's inerrant in religious matters, but it may have small incorrections in the realm of history and science.

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