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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #165298
05/22/14 01:38 PM
05/22/14 01:38 PM
APL  Offline
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Satan had pointed to Adam’s sin as proof that God’s law was unjust, and could not be obeyed. In our humanity, Christ was to redeem Adam’s failure. But when Adam was assailed by the tempter, none of the effects of sin were upon him. He stood in the strength of perfect manhood, possessing the full vigor of mind and body. He was surrounded with the glories of Eden, and was in daily communion with heavenly beings. It was not thus with Jesus when He entered the wilderness to cope with Satan. For four thousand years the race had been decreasing in physical strength, in mental power, and in moral worth; and Christ took upon Him the infirmities of degenerate humanity. Only thus could He rescue man from the lowest depths of his degradation. {DA 117.1}

Romans 8:1-4 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Christ did not have Adam's prefall nature. Christ's was post fall. And as EGW says, only thus could He rescue man! Christ comdemn sin in the flesh. Did Christ have a glorious body when He came to earth? No! But He restored it!

All come forth from their graves the same in stature as when they entered the tomb. Adam, who stands among the risen throng, is of lofty height and majestic form, in stature but little below the Son of God. He presents a marked contrast to the people of later generations; in this one respect is shown the great degeneracy of the race. But all arise with the freshness and vigor of eternal youth. In the beginning, man was created in the likeness of God, not only in character, but in form and feature. Sin defaced and almost obliterated the divine image; but Christ came to restore that which had been lost. He will change our vile bodies and fashion them like unto His glorious body. The mortal, corruptible form, devoid of comeliness, once polluted with sin, becomes perfect, beautiful, and immortal. All blemishes and deformities are left in the grave. Restored to the tree of life in the long-lost Eden, the redeemed will "grow up" (Malachi 4:2) to the full stature of the race in its primeval glory. The last lingering traces of the curse of sin will be removed, and Christ's faithful ones will appear in "the beauty of the Lord our God," in mind and soul and body reflecting the perfect image of their Lord. Oh, wonderful redemption! long talked of, long hoped for, contemplated with eager anticipation, but never fully understood. {GC 644.3}

WONDERFUL REDEMPTION!


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: APL] #165302
05/22/14 03:57 PM
05/22/14 03:57 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: asygo
You still miss the point. Even holy flesh is called human nature by inspiration.

Given that human nature, He "has carried the same into the highest heaven."


His flesh was the same fallen sinful flesh as man when He was here. That is the point. Otherwise He is not our example. And when He by Himself purged our sin, THEN, He sat down at the right hand.

Let me put it in mathematical terms: I say A=B. You say, No, C=D. It's a non-sequitur extravaganza.

You say Jesus had sinful flesh. I say inspired writings say that holy flesh qualifies as human nature. It is obvious that I have gone into a tooic you are unable to comprehend, or even address. Let's just leave it at that, lest you get more confused. This topic goes far deeper than the "Jesus had sinful flesh" mantra. Good day.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #165303
05/22/14 04:01 PM
05/22/14 04:01 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: asygo
Given that human nature, He "has carried the same into the highest heaven."

"It is the privilege of every believer in Christ to possess Christ's nature, a nature far above that which Adam forfeited by transgression." {UL 18.3} It is our privilege to possess Christ's nature.

I'm glad to hear that from you. So clarify this for me: Is Christ's nature, which is promised to us, which is far above Adam's forfeited nature, the carnal, sinful nature? Is sinful flesh far above Adam's holy flesh?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #165304
05/22/14 04:07 PM
05/22/14 04:07 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
[God] abhors all selfishness and covetousness. {OHC 225.2}

All selfishness comes from Satan. {LHU 292.2}

Christ strikes at the root of all selfishness. {5T 204.2}

All selfishness must be cut out by the roots. {RC 287.6}

Our souls must be purified from all selfishness; for God desires to use His people as representatives of the heavenly kingdom. {6T 190.3}

The true Christian banishes all selfishness from his heart. . . . The true Christian works unselfishly and untiringly for the Master. {OHC 287}

Bible conversion will lead to constant and abiding activity, which will be free from all selfishness, all self-exaltation, and all boastful claims of holiness. {SD 334.3}

But few have a true sense of what is comprised in the word Christian. It is to be Christlike, to do others good, to be divested of all selfishness, and to have our lives marked with acts of disinterested benevolence. {2T 331.1}

For "if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." That which was objectionable in the character is purified from the soul by the love of Jesus. All selfishness is expelled, all envy, all evil-speaking, is rooted out, and a radical transformation is wrought in the heart. "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." "The fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace. {RH, July 22, 1890 par. 15}

Christ lives in them, and the power of His Spirit attends their efforts. They realize that they are to live in this world the life that Jesus lived--a life free from all selfishness; and He enables them to bear witness for Him that draws souls to the cross of Calvary.--ST, Apr. 9, 1902.{DG 81.4}

No one can be omnipotent, but all can cleanse themselves from filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of the Lord. God requires every soul to be pure and holy. We have hereditary tendencies to wrong. This is a part of self that no one need carry about. It is a weakness of humanity to pet selfishness, because it is a natural trait of character. But unless all selfishness is put away, unless self is crucified, we can never be holy as God is holy. There is in humanity a tendency to suspicious imagining, which circumstances quicken into lively growth. If this trait is indulged, it spoils the character and ruins the soul. {FLB 140.4}


Originally Posted By: asygo
It looks like selfishness is not totally gone from believers.

The contrast between what you wrote and what Ellen White wrote is striking.

You mut have missed the SOP I quoted to reach my conclusion. Again, you miss some important details that lead you to very imbalanced views that tend toward error.

This is reminiscent of AT Jones' experience. You are in danger of losing your way as he did if you continue to ignore the big picture. Please open you eyes, MM. I'm giving you information on a platter but you keep pretending they dont exist.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #165305
05/22/14 04:14 PM
05/22/14 04:14 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
The cleansing power of the Holy Spirit, the cleansing power of the truth, the cleansing efficacy of Christ's grace empowers believers to mature daily in the fruit of the Spirit.

Are you saying that the Holy Spirit only cleanses those who are already clean? Or that cleansing is needed by believers because there is some dirt left even in them?

Let me repeat one of your quotes: The spirit of stubborn resistance is taken away, and a life-giving power takes possession of mind and heart. This experience you need daily to have. As the repentant sinner pleads for the cleansing efficacy of Christ's grace, a voice speaks to him, saying, "A new heart will I give thee. The soul is cleansed, the highest powers of the being are roused to action."


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: asygo] #165308
05/22/14 05:21 PM
05/22/14 05:21 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: asygo
You still miss the point. Even holy flesh is called human nature by inspiration.

Given that human nature, He "has carried the same into the highest heaven."


His flesh was the same fallen sinful flesh as man when He was here. That is the point. Otherwise He is not our example. And when He by Himself purged our sin, THEN, He sat down at the right hand.

Let me put it in mathematical terms: I say A=B. You say, No, C=D. It's a non-sequitur extravaganza.

You say Jesus had sinful flesh. I say inspired writings say that holy flesh qualifies as human nature. It is obvious that I have gone into a tooic you are unable to comprehend, or even address. Let's just leave it at that, lest you get more confused. This topic goes far deeper than the "Jesus had sinful flesh" mantra. Good day.


The Bible says Christ has sinful flesh. That is quite simple to understand. You have not direct quotation that Christ had holy flesh, yet the Bible is straight forward on this as is Ellen White! The Bible is clear Christ took on the seed of Abraham. Ellen White is clear that Christ took on flesh weakened by sin. You speak of stubbornness, who is stubborn? Who is not comprehending? Who is refusing to see the light?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #165309
05/22/14 06:46 PM
05/22/14 06:46 PM
asygo  Offline
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Look what I found during worship this morning:

He wants to restore His moral image in man. As you draw near to Him with confession and repentance, He will draw near to you with mercy and forgiveness. {SC 55.1}

Let the converting power of God be experienced in the hearts of the individual members, and then we shall see the deep movings of the Spirit of God. The forgiveness of sins is not the sole result of the death of Jesus. He made the infinite sacrifice, not only that sin might be removed, but that human nature might be restored, rebeautified, reconstructed from its ruins, and made fit for the presence of God. {5T 537.1}


It sure doesn't look like Jesus leaves us the way He finds us. There is a great TRANSFORMATION to be wrought. A CONVERSION is needed.

To say that Jesus came in as bad a shape as sinful man, and that He offers to give us that same image, is silly. No, Jesus was better than the sinful lot of this planet. So He calls us to accept Him and be CHANGED into His image, which is, obviously, not the same image that we have naturally.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #165310
05/22/14 07:11 PM
05/22/14 07:11 PM
asygo  Offline
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Posts: 5,607
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When man transgressed the divine law, his nature became evil, and he was in harmony, and not at variance, with Satan. {GC 505.2}

But should they once yield to temptation, their nature would become so depraved that in themselves they would have no power and no disposition to resist Satan. {PP 53.2}

Human nature is depraved, and is justly condemned by a holy God. {RH, September 17, 1895 par. 7}

With an antagonism to evil such as can exist only in a nature spotlessly pure, Christ manifested toward the sinner a love which infinite goodness alone could conceive. {PP 140.2}


I don't understand why people say Jesus had the same exact nature as a sinner. They must be focusing on the non-evil, non-depraved part of sinful human nature.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: asygo] #165312
05/22/14 07:28 PM
05/22/14 07:28 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: asygo
M: "It is the privilege of every believer in Christ to possess Christ's nature, a nature far above that which Adam forfeited by transgression." {UL 18.3} It is our privilege to possess Christ's nature.

A: I'm glad to hear that from you. So clarify this for me: Is Christ's nature, which is promised to us, which is far above Adam's forfeited nature, the carnal, sinful nature? Is sinful flesh far above Adam's holy flesh?

Human nature is a composite of the moral (spiritual), mental (intellectual), and physical. Listen:

Quote:
Education is but a preparation of the physical, intellectual, and spiritual powers for the best performance of all the duties of life. {CCh 168.1}

The tendencies of the physical nature, unless under the dominion of a higher power, will surely work ruin and death. {CSA 56.4}

Communion with God through his works, and the contemplation of the grand truths intrusted to the inheritors of faith, had elevated and ennobled his spiritual nature, broadening and strengthening the mind as no other study could do. {CE 225.3}

To transgress His law--physical, mental, or moral--is to place one's self out of harmony with the universe, to introduce discord, anarchy, ruin. {CG 55.2}

Diet has "a direct influence upon his physical, mental, and moral nature".{CG 166.4}

The Son of God humbled Himself and took man's nature after the race had wandered four thousand years from Eden, and from their original state of purity and uprightness. Sin had been making its terrible marks upon the race for ages; and physical, mental, and moral degeneracy prevailed throughout the human family. {Con 31.3}

In the gratification of perverted appetite and passion, even professed Christians cripple nature in her work and lessen physical, mental, and moral power. {CD 164.1}

They should be capable of rearing them in physical, mental, and moral health. Parents should study the laws of nature. {DG 202.2}

The manna with which He fed them in the wilderness was of a nature to promote physical, mental, and moral strength. {Ed 38.2}

A close sympathy exists between the physical and the moral nature. . . Indulgence of appetite strengthens the animal propensities, giving them the ascendancy over the mental and spiritual powers. {Mar 81.2}

When we speak of human nature, therefore, it is essential to clarify which aspect we are referring to. Ellen White divides them into the higher and lower powers. Listen:

Quote:
The lower propensities are to be kept under control of the higher powers. {2MCP 377.2}

If permitted, the lower passions will obtain the mastery over the whole being. Christ would have these passions subject to the higher powers of the mind. {ST, March 1, 1899 par. 7}

Self-control can be complete only in the strength which comes from Jesus Christ, ever true to the rightful dominion of the higher powers and attributes having dominion over the lower. {20MR 54.1}

The experimental knowledge of God and of Jesus Christ whom He has sent, transforms man into the image of God. It gives to man the mastery of himself, bringing every impulse and passion of the lower nature under the control of the higher powers of the mind. {COL 114.2}

Some will acknowledge the evil of sinful indulgences, yet will excuse themselves by saying that they cannot overcome their passions. This is a terrible admission for any person to make who names Christ. "Let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." Why is this weakness? It is because the animal propensities have been strengthened by exercise, until they have gained the ascendancy over the higher powers. Men and women lack principle. They are dying spiritually, because they have so long pampered their natural appetites that their power of self-government seems gone. The lower passions of their nature have taken the reins, and that which should be the governing power has become the servant of corrupt passion. The soul is held in lowest bondage. Sensuality has quenched the desire for holiness and withered spiritual prosperity. {CG 446.2}

The lower nature includes the powers associated with the appetites and passions. The higher nature includes the powers associated with reason, conscience, and intellect. The moral nature includes the powers associated with faith, hope, and spirituality. Sinful flesh is an intricate aspect of human nature. Listen:

Quote:
"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh"--it could not justify man, because in his sinful nature he could not keep the law--"God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 5:1; 3:31; 8:3, 4. {PP 373.1}

The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. The love of God must reign supreme; Christ must occupy an undivided throne. Our bodies are to be regarded as His purchased possession. The members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness. {AH 127.2}

Think of Christ's humiliation. He took upon Himself fallen, suffering human nature, degraded and defiled by sin. He took our sorrows, bearing our grief and shame. He endured all the temptations wherewith man is beset. He united humanity with divinity: a divine spirit dwelt in a temple of flesh. He united Himself with the temple. "The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us," because by so doing He could associate with the sinful, sorrowing sons and daughters of Adam. {4BC 1147.4}

Christ's life represents a perfect manhood. Just that which you may be, He was in human nature. He took our infirmities. He was not only made flesh, but He was made in the likeness of sinful flesh. His divine attributes were withheld from relieving His soul anguish or His bodily pains. {5BC 1124.2}

Jesus is the perfect pattern, and it is the duty and privilege of every child and youth to copy the pattern. Let children bear in mind that the child Jesus had taken upon Himself human nature, and was in the likeness of sinful flesh, and was tempted of Satan as all children are tempted. He was able to resist the temptation of Satan through His dependence upon the divine power of His heavenly Father, as He was subject to His will, and obedient to all His commands. He kept His Father's statutes, precepts, and laws. He was continually seeking counsel of God, and was obedient to His will. {SD 128.2}

When God gave Jesus to our world, He included all heaven in that one gift. He did not leave us to retain our defects and deformities of character, or to serve Him as best we could in the corruption of our sinful nature. He has made provision that we may be complete in His Son, not having our own righteousness, but the righteousness of Christ. {HM, March 1, 1898 par. 1}

We must realize that through belief in him it is our privilege to be partakers of the divine nature, and so escape the corruption that is in the world through lust. Then we are cleansed from all sin, all defects of character. We need not retain one sinful propensity. {RH, April 24, 1900 par. 6}

To all who receive him as a personal Saviour he gives power to become the sons of God. "The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, . . . full of grace and truth. . . . And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace." All who become the sons of God are possessed of his nature. They dwell in Christ as Christ dwells in God. Converted to the truth, imbued with the Holy Spirit, they are under the transforming influence of divine grace. The life of self-indulgence they once lived is changed to a life of service. {RH, May 2, 1912 par. 7}

"Christ possessed the same nature that man possesses. He was tempted in all points like as man is tempted. The same power by which He obeyed is at man's command. {TMK 292.6} Listen:

Quote:
The enemy was overcome by Christ in his human nature. The power of the Saviour's Godhead was hidden. He overcame in human nature, relying upon God for power. This is the privilege of all. In proportion to our faith will be our victory. {YI, April 25, 1901 par. 11}

Letters have been coming in to me, affirming that Christ could not have had the same nature as man, for if He had, He would have fallen under similar temptations. If He did not have man's nature, He could not be our example. If He was not a partaker of our nature, He could not have been tempted as man has been. If it were not possible for Him to yield to temptation, He could not be our helper. It was a solemn reality that Christ came to fight the battles as man, in man's behalf. His temptation and victory tell us that humanity must copy the Pattern; man must become a partaker of the divine nature. {1SM 408.1}

He who took humanity upon Himself knows just how to sympathize with the sufferings of humanity. He had the same nature as the sinner although He knew no sin, in order that He might be able to condemn sin in the flesh and might be able to sympathize with those who were in the difficulties, dangers, and temptations that beset His own path while He walked with men. They are to obtain help as He Himself obtained it, through a vital connection with God. {10MR 176.1}

God sent forth His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh that He might condemn sin in the flesh and reveal the fact to heaven, to the worlds unfallen and also the fallen world, that through the power of divine grace, through partaking of the divine nature, man need no longer stand under the curse of the law or remain in transgression. {14MR 82.3}

The glory of God is His character. . . . This character was revealed in the life of Christ. That He might by His own example condemn sin in the flesh, He took upon Himself the likeness of sinful flesh. Constantly He beheld the character of God; constantly He revealed this character to the world. Christ desires His followers to reveal in their lives this same character. {TMK 131.3}

He did not leave us to retain our defects and deformities of character, or to serve Him as best we could in the corruption of our sinful nature. {HM, March 1, 1898 par. 1} Then we are cleansed from all sin, all defects of character. We need not retain one sinful propensity. {RH, April 24, 1900 par. 6}

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: asygo] #165313
05/22/14 07:33 PM
05/22/14 07:33 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: asygo
It sure doesn't look like Jesus leaves us the way He finds us. There is a great TRANSFORMATION to be wrought. A CONVERSION is needed. To say that Jesus came in as bad a shape as sinful man, and that He offers to give us that same image, is silly. No, Jesus was better than the sinful lot of this planet. So He calls us to accept Him and be CHANGED into His image, which is, obviously, not the same image that we have naturally. . . I don't understand why people say Jesus had the same exact nature as a sinner. They must be focusing on the non-evil, non-depraved part of sinful human nature.

It looks like we are saying the same thing. Jesus was like a born-again, transformed, converted believer = no sinful defective traits of character, no selfishness, no sinful propensities. Nevertheless, they retain sinful flesh. They must resist its unholy clamorings. And, everything they think, say, and do requires the merits of Jesus to be acceptable.

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