Is one of the signs that will happen again is wolves in sheep clothing coming into the flock to distract and lead others astray?

Far better if one knows the books of Scripture.

_________________________________

Oh ok, now I see you've answered and addressed more of the prior post I sent. I had a response ready for you but I see that now I will have to revise it. Will do so next week. In mean time can you answer these questions I have asked you?

You continually say "Houteff says this or that" "Houteff believes this or that" etc. etc, yet you haven't been straight forward on letting us know what exactly have you read?? And when I mean read, I mean the whole tract or book. If you want to advocate what someone believes you can't chop it up and piece meal it and try and convince people you have knowledge of the subject.

But isn't that what you are doing with EGW's writings?
Aren't you chopping it up and making her say something very different from what she is actually saying?

You are not giving the same picture of endtime events that she has given, yet you continually take quotes from her writings to support Houteff's ideas. A lot of those quotes are not in the context in which they were written -- especially when she speaks of "putting away sin" and "cleansing" which she does NOT link with Ezekiel 9, but with actual departing from sin, not the demise of the people.

What I have said about Houteff is what he was teaching, it is what you have been sharing. It's part of the fundamental doctrines published back in 1944.
Also you have quoted his writings and I responded.

I've had Shepherd Rod people give me "Bible studies" that were supposedly to lead me step by step to accept their temporal kingdom. That was about 17 years ago now.
They gave me several tracts --The harvest, at the eleventh hour and more and directed me to Houteff's book.
. Some of it sounded good, but once I saw the errors, I saw no more point in immersing myself in those writings.

The use of EGW's writings, pieced together in such a way as to give a completely changed endtime picture was more evidence to convince me of the errors. I often look up the quotes to see their context.

Why do they use EGW writings so extensively and yet contradict her big picture of endtime events?
To me that is deception. A mixing of a lot of truth to establish an error, thus trying to make the whole seem like truth.
Now if you believe in a temporal kingdom, that's one thing -- you have the right to believe as you are convicted, but it is in direct contradiction to EGW's writings.

Also you seem to now say -- don't discuss the basic doctrines of the Shepherd Rod until you read all their writings.
Yet, it is very important to know WHERE one is going before blindly following down some path.

We need to be very careful what we feed upon. If the premise and conclusion is wrong why further immerse oneself --


If Shepherd Rod think their message is the Biblical message, that is their privilege, everyone has a right to follow their convictions, but then they should stick to the Bible, and don't use EGW and twist her message into something she did not support.

The Dream (was it prophetic or simply a dream, I leave that with the reader)

In the dream a feeling of dread rested upon us, the world situations were chaotic, the major sources of security threatened, there seemed no earthly way to turn. Suddenly a shout rang out. “ Look over there!” Far in the distance was a glorious looking doorway. It seemed to be beckoning in the radiance of its splendor. People were joyously urging everyone to come for this was the place of refuge for the world. People with happy faces were helping each other to go to this glorious door way and enter in.
We were about to join them when a voice behind us, quietly but authoritatively said, “wait and watch and pray that you enter not into temptation.” Throngs of people all around continued to enter through the doorway.
Then the scene changed. The doorway grew dark and ugly, and people who had joyously entered therein earlier were seen coming out again, but their faces were changed; their eyes had a vacant stare, their expression utterly hopeless, others were weeping in agony.
The dream ended.

Ded-"They gave me several tracts --The harvest, at the eleventh hour and more and directed me to Houteff's book.
. Some of it sounded good, but once I saw the errors, I saw no more point in immersing myself in those writings."

You must be assured and know that this is exactly what the Sunday keepers tell us when they "peer" and "surface study" EGW. We all know that there are many so-called "errors" that they claim, and they stop and say--"see, why do we need further evidence?".

Still and for the THIRD time you have obfuscated in answering the question. I don't want to hear all your explanations, just answer the questions as to what you have read from front to back, can you do that?

I've read the Great Controversy from cover to cover several times, also Early Writings, as well as scripture. Have you read Great Controversy chapter by chapter? It is this background that keeps me from blindly following Houteff's studies, for they just do NOT agree with the above, though I have read considerable of his writings.

I just found again my binder, that I compiled with an inch and a half of printed pages from Houteff's writings all dealing with his endtime prophetic ideas. Your claim that I haven't looked into this is false. The only problem is that it was a long time ago (about 17 years).

This study binder begins with Tract #1 starting on page 4. Houteff is defining God's thrones. Two Moving thrones in Ezekiel 1, and Is. 6 and two stationary thrones in Rev. 4 and Rev. 22.

Yet here already we see a contradiction between Houteff and EGW in which Houteff actually quotes EGW!!!

Houteff writes on page 8 of tract #1

EGW in the actual quote wrote:

In determining the location of the throne of Revelation 4…the one having the sea of glass before it, is (also according to John's view) in the most holy apartment of the heavenly sanctuary, for John saw before it "seven lamps of fire" (Rev. 4:5) -- a sanctuary fixture. "As in vision the apostle John was granted a view of the temple of God in heaven he beheld there 'seven lamps of fire burning before the throne.' " -- The Great Controversy, p. 414.

The holy places of the sanctuary in heaven are represented by the two apartments in the sanctuary on earth. As in vision the apostle John was granted a view of the temple of God in heaven, he beheld there "seven lamps of fire burning before the throne." Revelation 4:5. He saw an angel "having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne." Revelation 8:3. Here the prophet was permitted to behold the first apartment of the sanctuary in heaven; and he saw there the "seven lamps of fire" and "the golden altar," represented by the golden candlestick and the altar of incense in the sanctuary on earth. Great Controversy, p. 414

Why would use her quote when he didn't agree with it? It alerts one right in the first tract that he is not using EGW properly. But I read on for Houteff did have the Daniel 7 correct that God moved into the Most Holy Place in that chapter. Yet it seems Houteff thinks the throne in Daniel 7 is a stationary throne (one before the sea of glass) yet there is no sea of glass in Daniel 7 and the throne in Daniel 7 has WHEELS!

He then turns to Ezekiel chapter one, and I agreed that the throne in that chapter was definitely a moving throne in which God visits the earth.

But then he goes into a lot of twisted reasoning (that you shared and posted here on the forum and I disagreed with) that Ezekiel didn't understand what his message meant and could not possibly have delivered it to the house of Israel in his time and it is all concerning the Adventist church.

My former comments are totally relevant to what Houteff wrote, and there is no way you can honestly go about saying I simply haven't read it.

He quotes Great Controversy page 425

"...While the investigative judgment is going forward in heaven,...there is to be a special work of purification, of putting away of sin, among God's people upon earth....Then the church which our Lord at His coming is to receive to Himself will be a "glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing." Ephesians 5:27. Then she will look "forth as the morning, fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners." Song of Solomon 6:10. {GC 425.2} "

and links it with Ezekiel nine's massacre. Yet there is no such link at all in that quote.

Basically I think we need a study on what this means--
a special work of purification
putting away sins.

Houteff pictures it as killing everyone who doesn't measure up and calls that the "special work of purification". But that's not what it's about at all.

This special work of purification while the investigative judgment is still in progress, is a process of the heart of the members that are seriously praying and humbly submitting themselves to the Lord.

Yes, there is need for putting away sin and firmly anchoring our souls in Christ.

Because, when the test comes those who have not done so will be swept into the ranks of the enemy. There will be a separation, a BIG separation that makes it appear the church is falling, dissolving, as the major portion of it gives up the truth under the pressure and supports the opposition, but there will be those who pass the test, as they have renounced sin and are anchored firmly in Christ. It will be a TEST that most, due to negligence are not prepared to pass.

I have to admit, you get more creative with each response to my question.

Now, stop and think here. I did not ask what you have done with brother Houteff's writings and some of your conclusions you make and some of the contradictions you found (all that can be addressed later Lord willing).

I simply asked and again, for the FOURTH time:

What books, Tracts, or other titles have you read front to back of Houteff's writings?

If you have surface read them and read parts of them, fine just tell us.

How can one speak of the writings of an author without reading them completely, unless they have certain ideas and agenda they are promoting.

Ellen White was very clear here--
"He gives evidence, which must be carefully investigated with a humble mind and teachable spirit, and all should decide from the weight of evidence." (Testimonies, vol 3, p.255)

How can one "carefully investigate" if they study a subject part way?

Does not our Sunday keeping friends do the same thing with us? They read bits and pieces of EGW and Sabbath Scripture and say, "See, there is error, why do I have to study further?"

By the way, and I had mentioned this to you before, brother Houteff took on much more difficult questions and apparent contradictions than you bring up in his "Questions and Answers" volumes (over 169 questions submitted by those for and AGAINST him)

Why don't you look these over and see if you find his answers correct or wrong. Here it is The Answerer

You and I are coming from a different belief in the "Elijah to come". You flatly reject Victor Houteff as that one prophesied and you admit by your obfuscating, that you dis-believe even though you have not study the matter out completely.

I, on the other hand, have done so. No one wants to be deceived, certainly myself, and as such I have studied the matter with a keen eye to truth, even if that means denying ANYONE's statements not in accordance with truth.

Furthemore, once one understands that all clues prophesied fit only one man in our history it REQUIRES us to take this matter very seriously and not superficially.

Bottomline, you are not the first to deny that the Lord has sent a Elijah to come to our church, and your attitude of, "ah see I got the goods here" is only but in a long line of previous doubters. I have read all the anti-Rod reports and STILL strongly believe that the "preponderance of evidence" strongly shows the Lord has sent that one who He said He would.

Test. to Ministers, page 475, clearly brings up 4 or 5 clues, on the Elijah to come, and it clearly shows that this man would be "rejected". How was that rejection to be manifest? Speaking of the Elijah EGW said the people would say- "you do not interpret the Scriptures in the proper way, let me tell you how to teach your message".

If you are found wrong here, the rejection of the God sent one and his solemn and very important message, cannot go response free from the Lord.

There is much more to say but would you answer the main question? If your beliefs are right , then why hide anything and answer the straight forward question?

"Men, women, and youth, God requires you to possess moral courage, steadiness of purpose, fortitude and perseverance, minds that cannot take the assertions of another, but which will investigate for themselves before receiving or rejecting, that will study and weigh evidence, and take it to the Lord in prayer."If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. "Test, vol.2, p.130)

One last thing, if anyone wants to know the truth seriously, they MUST go before the Lord in prayer before undertaking a study. And come before him with an open mind free from pre-conceived ideas. Those who open a study, with an agenda, will find what they are looking for, not necessarily --God's truth.

"God will never remove every occasion for doubt.He gives sufficient evidence on which to base faith, and if this is not accepted, the mind is left in darkness".(Patriarchs and prophets, p.432)

But have you actually read EGW's writings from cover to cover, or is yours just a surface research looking for quotes that appear to substantiate Houteff, even though the concluding picture is in contradiction to her writings.

Have you now chosen to attack me, rather than deal with the issues? I have read whole chapters from his book, as well as numerous tracts -- I can't remember each of their name. I already told you the names of TWO of them that I remembered.

I have read EGW's writings, and Houteff contradicts her conclusions over and over again.

That's not to say everything contradicts -- no, not at all, there are some interesting insights in his writings, but one can't read far in any of his tracts or book without being constantly led to his basic premises (his idea that purification means being slaughtered, and his idea that preaching the gospel to the world means a temporal LITERAL kingdom in Palestine).

And the thing is most disconcerting is how he MISUSES EGW, often taking sentences from her writings where she is talking about something different and weaving it into his ideas as if she were talking about the same thing.

What you believe is "truth" is between you and God, but don't expect people to agree with you when they see glaring contradictions to truth in the conclusions of events Houteff tries to teach.

Yes, I want TRUTH --
I most certainly do NOT want to be trapped in some earthly counterfeit kingdom, nor do I want my friends trapped in it, and really for your own sake, you should seriously rethink this whole thing.




But Ellen White is NOT talking about Houteff!
Please don't quote her as if she was.

In that quote she is talking about GOD!!!
" God does not propose to remove all occasion for unbelief. He gives evidence, which must be carefully investigated with a humble mind and a teachable spirit, and all should decide from the weight of evidence.


But what does she say about prophets who use her writings to make their "claims" sound authentic?



And such is precisely how I see Houteff's writings.
He was "uniting them with the testimonies" the Lord gave EGW, in an attempt to give them "authenticity", but his conclusions are in contradiction to her writings.




Haven't we already seen the fruits of Houteff's writings several times? Yes, I realize present day Shepherd Rod's say those events are a "misunderstanding" of his writings.
And it's true the Shepherd Rod splintered into several divisions in the early 1960's, each with their own brand of beliefs.

But what about back in the 1950's?
What about the parents of some close friends of ours, who sold everything and went down to Mt. Carmel back in the 1950's. This dedicated couple believed Houteff's message enough to give up everything, sell their home and everything, and go to the supposed "place of refuge" and donate all their money.

What they found at Mt. Carmel was NOT a group of people spotless and without sin. There was sinning going on. Houteff died about then -- that was quite a shock to those people who had given up everything to join his small band as Victor Houteff taught that he would not die, but would lead his people to the "holy land" and on to Christ's coming.

Houteff's wife, Florence took over the leadership and bolstered up their confidence by amplifying V.Houteff's statements that the 1260 prophetic days would have a literal fulfillment, so she marked off 1260 literal days that ended sometime in 1959, when certain endtime events supposedly were to transpire --- of course they didn't.

Our friend's parents came back to Canada very disillusioned, with absolutely nothing -- no home, no money, destitute, and they had been quite well off previous to their journey to Mt. Carmel.

That was back in the 1950's in the original Shepherd Rod group.

Ded- But have you actually read EGW's writings from cover to cover, or is yours just a surface research looking for quotes that appear to substantiate Houteff, even though the concluding picture is in contradiction to her writings.

Gsll-But that is not an applicable point. I am not disproving and denying Ellen White like you are with VTH. Because you make yourself out as some type of authority on the Shepherd's Rod , when in fact and in truth, you have not read the material fully , as to “weigh the matter”. As mentioned this is the SAME tactic is used by the Sunday keepers against us. They pick and choose because they have an agenda to “prove it wrong” instead of arriving at truth even though it may be against what they believe as truth.

Let us be careful as the Lord's 9th Commandment specifically says “Do not bear false witness”.

Ded-Have you now chosen to attack me, rather than deal with the issues? I have read whole chapters from his book, as well as numerous tracts -- I can't remember each of their name. I already told you the names of TWO of them that I remembered.

Gsll--I'm sorry if you think you are being “attacked” and it is not my intention to hurt your feelings. It's only that I want the truth spoken on this matter and not misstatements and falsehood.

I have conceded on some points with you and admitted that a few of your specific points were valid, can you do the same?

We are told that we must “love the truth” if we are to be saved (2 Thes. 2:10)

And also even if this truth is contemptuous , and you have placed contempt upon this message, we must examine it closely and be careful to not surface study it.

“God means that testing truth shall be brought to the front and become a subject of examination and discussion, even if it is through the contempt placed upon it.” (Testimonies, vol. 5, p.453)

Ded--I have read EGW's writings, and Houteff contradicts her conclusions over and over again.
 
Gsll- Are you not aware that many including VTH have pointed out correctly on several occasions how it is easy to spot apparent contradictions with EGW writings (she says one thing than later says another on the same matter) So do we throw her out? of course not we “weigh it all out” the WHOLE matter then decide.

Further, and I know this you don't believe, but the Elijah to come was to “restore” all things meaning restore truth first then his message is to restore the kingdom (first on earth then taken to heaven.) So VTH's words in regards to any lack of clarity by EGW is it's restoration of her subject matter.

However this ”kingdom” is not to be a literal worldly commercial kingdom rather a “church” kingdom comprised of only wheat and headquarted in Israel. But this is another LONG study and involved indeed.

“Fair as the moon, and as terrible as an army with banners, the church is to enter upon her final conflict, conquering and to conquer. “(PK p.725) No tares in this bunch!

Ded- .. there are some interesting insights in his writings..”

Gsll-Let's be honest, there are more than "some” there is really so much insight , that those who humbly and with open mind study it in full can come to no other conclusion that this is the “interpreter” sent us as prophesied by EGW (Test. To Ministers. p.475).

Ded- one can't read far in any of his tracts or book without being constantly led to his basic premises (his idea that purification means being slaughtered, and his idea that preaching the gospel to the world means a temporal LITERAL kingdom in Palestine).
 
Gsll- Those are not “his” ideas, that is another false lie, please read--

“Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.” (Isaiah 52:1)

"He who presides over His church and the destinies of nations is carrying forward the last work to be accomplished for this world. To His angels He gives the commission to execute His judgments. Let the ministers awake, let them take in the situation. The work of judgment begins at the sanctuary. "And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brazen altar." Read Ezekiel 9:2-7. Testimonies to Ministers p. 430

"Angels keep a faithful record of every man's work, and as judgment passes upon the house of God, the sentence of each is recorded by his name, and the angel is commissioned to spare not the unfaithful servants, but to cut them down at the time of slaughter. And that which was committed to their trust is taken from them." Testimonies, Vol. 1 p. 198.

"Many, I saw, were flattering themselves that they were good Christians, who have not a single ray of light from Jesus. They know not what it is to be renewed by the grace of God. They have no living experience for themselves in the things of God. And I saw that the Lord was whetting His sword in heaven to cut them down. Oh, that every lukewarm professor could realize the clean work that God is about to make among His professed people! Dear friends, do not deceive yourselves concerning your condition. You cannot deceive God. Says the True Witness: 'I know thy works.'" Testimonies, Vol.1 p. 190.

if you can't see a purification among God's people here, then I pray the Spirit of Truth come and guide you.(John 16:13)


Ded-Yes, I want TRUTH --
I most certainly do NOT want to be trapped in some earthly counterfeit kingdom, nor do I want my friends trapped in it, and really for your own sake, you should seriously rethink this whole thing.

Gsll- You do? Then how come I never see any acknowledgment of “truth” that is shown you? Like the fact that you are wrong about the angels who do the work of Ezekiel 9 and NOT humans.Why haven't you admitted that. If we take that specific point to task, you idea turns into baloney.

Originally Posted By: GL&L
Ded--Ellen White was very clear here--
"He gives evidence, which must be carefully investigated with a humble mind and teachable spirit, and all should decide from the weight of evidence." (Testimonies, vol 3, p.255)


But Ellen White is NOT talking about Houteff! 
Please don't quote her as if she was. 

Gsll- VTH quotes EGW yes, but those quotes are saying truth . Anyone who decides to investigate must come to their own conclusions and you or I can't dictate what they are to believe.We search these things out like the Bureans.


Ded--Haven't we already seen the fruits of Houteff's writings several times? Yes, I realize present day Shepherd Rod's say those events are a "misunderstanding" of his writings.
And it's true the Shepherd Rod splintered into several divisions in the early 1960's, each with their own brand of beliefs. 

But what about back in the 1950's?
What about the parents of some close friends of ours, who sold everything and went down to Mt. Carmel back in the 1950's. This dedicated couple believed Houteff's message enough to give up everything, sell their home and everything, and go to the supposed "place of refuge" and donate all their money.

Gsll--. See this site for truth on the history . Wikipedia—Davidian Seventh Day Adventist


Ded- ..Florence took over the leadership and bolstered up their confidence by amplifying V.Houteff's statements that the 1260 prophetic days would have a literal fulfillment, so she marked off 1260 literal days that ended sometime in 1959, when certain end time events supposedly were to transpire --- of course they didn't. 

Gsll--May God forgive your soul sister, This is falsehood and twisting of the facts. Brother Houteff NEVER made any predictions of the time when the 1260 days would have an end time fulfillment. That was Florence Houteff's prediction SOLELY (who went apostate later even denying EGW).

If you would study the history to know the truth, you'd know that Florence actually fulfilled brother Houteff predictions that some within would cause a “knock out blow” for the cause. Just as Judas was very close to Jesus and later betrayed him, so too Florence would later, after VTH's death betray Victor's cause and bring division in that day by “her” and her board of leaders to bring the Lord's Rod to the Alter to sacrifice (declaring that the her prediction would prove or disprove the message).

But truth seekers today who believe that the Lord performed His promise and sent an Elijah to give us a message (Malachi 4:5 and Test. To Ministers, p.475) don't fall for the schemes of Satan. Who has been hovering closely by those who promote this message of truth. He hates it at all costs and as we have seen has tried his upmost to destroy the Lord's Rod message, yet the people are listening to the message despite the false attacks.
“Hear ye the rod, and Who has appointed it.” (Micah 6:9)

Ded- Our friend's parents came back to Canada very disillusioned, with absolutely nothing -- no home, no money, destitute, and they had been quite well off previous to their journey to Mt. Carmel.

Gsll- I obviously don't know all the facts of this situation(neither do you). I can tell you that I have spoken many times to two living remaining members of the camp while VTH was there. Bonnie Smith (83) and Don Adair (82). Both of these tell of a completely different story than your story. They tell of a camp that was devoted to Christ. They tell of some of the miracles they witness on that camp. They tell of the absolute devotion brother Houteff had to the Lord.
For a more complete history of the camp see Don Adair's book “A Davidian testimony”. And the photo album from sister Bonnie. See here -- Bonnie Smith photo album

Your comments admit that the succeeding “leadership”(not Houteff) were the ones who predicted “by amplifying V.Houteff's statements”. This whole fiasco of the false 1260 day prediction has been attributed to VTH for a long time and promoted by the anti- Rod SDA leaders, even though they know it was never taught by VTH.

Why don't you provide written proof showing your VTH statements regarding the 1260 days(?)I'd like to see your evidence of this.

This is what Satan does, he tries to twist the truth and promote falsehood, and those who wittingly or unwittingly cooperate with it are –BEARING FALSE WITNESS and breaking the 9th Commandment.

One last comment, and it's very important. John the Baptist and even Apostle Paul are guilty just as Victor Houteff is if we condmen VTH for believing that he would witness the Lord's kingdom. Because both of these holy man believed it as well. EGW confirms John's account of that belief. Also Paul mentions that he believed he'd see the Lord coming in the clouds-- Are they false prophets?

“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. “ (1 Thes. 4:17)

“The testimony, so cutting and severe, cannot be a mistake, for it is the True Witness who speaks, and His testimony must be correct.” Testimonie Treasures, vol. 1 page 328)

“Now as in former ages, the presentation of a truth that reproves the sins and errors of the times will excite opposition.”

This why they hated brother Houteff, his message struck at the core of their corruptions. It exposed their “retreating towards Egypt.” And it wondrously shows old and new testament prophecies in glorious truths. praise the Lord!