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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: asygo]
#165314
05/22/14 07:03 PM
05/22/14 07:03 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
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Posts: 6,368
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...the fallen nature of Adam always strives for the mastery. The heart must be prepared for the principles of truth, that they may root in the soul and find nourishment in the life. {AH 205.1}
In their fallen nature people can do the very things God expects them to do through the help provided for them. {CTr 53.4}
What love! What amazing condescension! The King of glory proposed to humble Himself to fallen humanity! He would place His feet in Adam's steps. He would take man's fallen nature, and engage to cope with the strong foe who triumphed over Adam. He would overcome Satan, and in thus doing He would open the way for the redemption from the disgrace of Adam's failure and fall, of all those who would believe on Him. {Con 18.1}
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Jesus took on man's fallen nature, and overcame.
WHAT LOVE! WHAT AMAZING CONDESCENSION!
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#165319
05/22/14 11:21 PM
05/22/14 11:21 PM
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Here the test to Christ was far greater than that of Adam and Eve, for Christ took our nature, fallen but not corrupted, and would not be corrupted unless He received the words of Satan in the place of the words of God.—Manuscript 57, 1890 (Manuscript Releases 16:180-183).{CTr 208.7}
And what makes our nature corrupt?
In what consisted the strength of the assault made upon Adam, which caused his fall? It was not indwelling sin; for God made Adam after His own character, pure and upright. There were no corrupt principles in the first Adam, no corrupt propensities or tendencies to evil. (Letter 191, 1899).{1BC 1083.6}
To commune with Him—what can more elevate, refine, and exalt us above the frivolous pleasures of earth? To have our corrupt natures renovated by grace, our lustful appetites and animal propensities in subjection, to stand forth with noble, moral independence, achieving victories every day, will give peace of conscience which can arise alone from rightdoing. {1T 503.2}
But here we must not become in our ideas common and earthly, and in our perverted ideas we must not think that the liability of Christ to yield to Satan’s temptations degraded His humanity and He possessed the same sinful, corrupt propensities as man.{16MR 182.2}
The difference between Christ and us is that He did not possess the same sinful, corrupt propensities that we have. Christ's nature was fallen, but not corrupted.
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#165320
05/22/14 11:57 PM
05/22/14 11:57 PM
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"Christ's nature was fallen, but not corrupted". There is fascinating science behind this, but most here would reject it outright. But at least Rosangela recognizes that Christ took on FALLEN human nature. EGW puts it this way: By taking upon Himself man's nature in its fallen condition, Christ did not in the least participate in its sin. He was subject to the infirmities and weaknesses of the flesh with which humanity is encompassed, "that it might be fulfilled that was spoken by the prophet Esaias, Himself took our infirmities and bare our sicknesses." He was touched with the feeling of our infirmities, and was in all points tempted like as we are. And yet He was without a spot. {16MR 116.3}
From Early Writings, chapter titled, "Plan of Redemption"
Satan again rejoiced with his angels that he could, by causing man's fall, pull down the Son of God from His exalted position. He told his angels that when Jesus should take fallen man's nature, he could overpower Him and hinder the accomplishment of the plan of salvation. {EW 152.2}
Again, Christ took Adam's post fall nature. It had to be thus, or there would have been no plan of redemption.
WHAT LOVE! WHAT AMAZING CONDESCENSION!
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: asygo]
#165321
05/23/14 01:38 AM
05/23/14 01:38 AM
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[God] abhors all selfishness and covetousness. {OHC 225.2}
All selfishness comes from Satan. {LHU 292.2}
Christ strikes at the root of all selfishness. {5T 204.2}
All selfishness must be cut out by the roots. {RC 287.6}
Our souls must be purified from all selfishness; for God desires to use His people as representatives of the heavenly kingdom. {6T 190.3}
The true Christian banishes all selfishness from his heart. . . . The true Christian works unselfishly and untiringly for the Master. {OHC 287}
Bible conversion will lead to constant and abiding activity, which will be free from all selfishness, all self-exaltation, and all boastful claims of holiness. {SD 334.3}
But few have a true sense of what is comprised in the word Christian. It is to be Christlike, to do others good, to be divested of all selfishness, and to have our lives marked with acts of disinterested benevolence. {2T 331.1}
For "if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." That which was objectionable in the character is purified from the soul by the love of Jesus. All selfishness is expelled, all envy, all evil-speaking, is rooted out, and a radical transformation is wrought in the heart. "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." "The fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace. {RH, July 22, 1890 par. 15}
Christ lives in them, and the power of His Spirit attends their efforts. They realize that they are to live in this world the life that Jesus lived--a life free from all selfishness; and He enables them to bear witness for Him that draws souls to the cross of Calvary.--ST, Apr. 9, 1902.{DG 81.4}
No one can be omnipotent, but all can cleanse themselves from filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of the Lord. God requires every soul to be pure and holy. We have hereditary tendencies to wrong. This is a part of self that no one need carry about. It is a weakness of humanity to pet selfishness, because it is a natural trait of character. But unless all selfishness is put away, unless self is crucified, we can never be holy as God is holy. There is in humanity a tendency to suspicious imagining, which circumstances quicken into lively growth. If this trait is indulged, it spoils the character and ruins the soul. {FLB 140.4} It looks like selfishness is not totally gone from believers. The contrast between what you wrote and what Ellen White wrote is striking. You mut have missed the SOP I quoted to reach my conclusion. Again, you miss some important details that lead you to very imbalanced views that tend toward error. This is reminiscent of AT Jones' experience. You are in danger of losing your way as he did if you continue to ignore the big picture. Please open you eyes, MM. I'm giving you information on a platter but you keep pretending they dont exist. AMEN! That is exactly what God has shared with me on this subject. We are in complete agreement asygo.
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#165322
05/23/14 03:30 AM
05/23/14 03:30 AM
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That we might become acquainted with His divine character and life, Christ took our nature and dwelt among us. Divinity was revealed in humanity; the invisible glory in the visible human form. Men could learn of the unknown through the known; heavenly things were revealed through the earthly; God was made manifest in the likeness of men. So it was in Christ’s teaching: the unknown was illustrated by the known; divine truths by earthly things with which the people were most familiar.{COL 17.1}
"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#165334
05/23/14 02:03 PM
05/23/14 02:03 PM
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It sure doesn't look like Jesus leaves us the way He finds us. There is a great TRANSFORMATION to be wrought. A CONVERSION is needed. To say that Jesus came in as bad a shape as sinful man, and that He offers to give us that same image, is silly. No, Jesus was better than the sinful lot of this planet. So He calls us to accept Him and be CHANGED into His image, which is, obviously, not the same image that we have naturally. . . I don't understand why people say Jesus had the same exact nature as a sinner. They must be focusing on the non-evil, non-depraved part of sinful human nature. It looks like we are saying the same thing. Jesus was like a born-again, transformed, converted believer = no sinful defective traits of character, no selfishness, no sinful propensities. Nevertheless, they retain sinful flesh. They must resist its unholy clamorings. And, everything they think, say, and do requires the merits of Jesus to be acceptable. Rosangela, do you agree born-again, changed, converted, transformed believers are free of defective traits of character, free of selfishness, free of sinful propensities? Do you agree they have the nature of Jesus? Do you agree the only human difference between them and Jesus is meritorious righteousness?
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: APL]
#165337
05/23/14 03:53 PM
05/23/14 03:53 PM
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"Christ's nature was fallen, but not corrupted".
...
Christ took Adam's post fall nature. Was Adam's post fall nature corrupted?
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: asygo]
#165338
05/23/14 05:32 PM
05/23/14 05:32 PM
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SDA
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"Christ's nature was fallen, but not corrupted".
...
Christ took Adam's post fall nature. Was Adam's post fall nature corrupted?
Did Adam receive the words of Satan in place of the words of God? If so, then there is your answer.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: APL]
#165339
05/23/14 06:02 PM
05/23/14 06:02 PM
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SDA
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"Christ's nature was fallen, but not corrupted".
...
Christ took Adam's post fall nature. Was Adam's post fall nature corrupted?
Did Adam receive the words of Satan in place of the words of God? If so, then there is your answer. I guess you mean that Adam's post fall nature was corrupted. ("Guess" because you didn't say clearly.) So we have: 1. Christ took Adam's post fall nature. 2. Christ's nature was not corrupted. 3. Adam's nature was corrupted by receiving the words of Satan in place of the words of God. Those three cannot all be true. One of them is false. And reading the passage you quoted, it's not hard to see which one. Hint: "Christ took our nature, fallen but not corrupted, and would not be corrupted unless He received the words of Satan in the place of the words of God."
Last edited by asygo; 05/23/14 06:02 PM.
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: APL]
#165340
05/23/14 06:13 PM
05/23/14 06:13 PM
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Banned
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"Christ's nature was fallen, but not corrupted".
...
Christ took Adam's post fall nature. Was Adam's post fall nature corrupted?
Did Adam receive the words of Satan in place of the words of God? If so, then there is your answer. Because Adam's post fallen nature was corrupted Christ was not in the likeness of corrupted Adam. He did NOT take Adam's corrupted post fall nature. He became a man, in the lineage of fallen men, but He was not corrupted. He made it possible to elevate man's fallen nature to that of redeemed because He did not listen to the words of Satan, and He did this through FAITH. He came in the likeness of sinful flesh but without sin, so it was like He was the second Adam within the fallen body of Adam. He took Adams fallen nature and restored it. He came in the body of Adams failure and re-perfected it. It is so interesting that you quoted the perfect text to prove this yet you did not see it APL. "Christ’s perfect humanity is the same that man may have through connection with Christ. As God, Christ could not be tempted any more than He was not tempted from His allegiance in heaven. But as Christ humbled Himself to the nature of man, He could be tempted. He had not taken on Him even the nature of the angels, but humanity, perfectly identical with our own nature, except without the taint of sin. A human body, a human mind, with all the peculiar properties, He was bone, brain, and muscle. A man of our flesh, He was compassed with the weakness of humanity. The circumstances of His life were of that character that He was exposed to all the inconveniences that belong to men, not in wealth, not in ease, but in poverty and want and humiliation. He breathed the very air man must breathe. He trod our earth as man. He had reason, conscience, memory, will, and affections of the human soul which was united with His divine nature. {16MR 181.4} Our Lord was tempted as man is tempted. He was capable of yielding to temptations, as are human beings. His finite nature was pure and spotless, but the divine nature that led Him to say to Philip, “He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father” also, was not humanized; neither was humanity deified by the blending or union of the two natures; each retained its essential character and properties.{16MR 182.1} But here we must not become in our ideas common and earthly, and in our perverted ideas we must not think that the liability of Christ to yield to Satan’s temptations degraded His humanity and He possessed the same sinful, corrupt propensities as man.{16MR 182.2} The divine nature, combined with the human, made Him capable of yielding to Satan’s temptations. Here the test to Christ was far greater than that of Adam and Eve, for Christ took our nature, fallen but not corrupted, and would not be corrupted unless He received the words of Satan in the place of the words of God. To suppose He was not capable of yielding to temptation places Him where He cannot be a perfect example for man, and the force and the power of this part of Christ’s humiliation, which is the most eventful, is no instruction or help to human beings. {16MR 182.3} This is exactly what I have been trying to say. I cannot fathom how you APL
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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