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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: Rosangela] #165323
05/23/14 05:32 AM
05/23/14 05:32 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Commentaries sometimes must be taken with a grain of salt, but lexicons? There are no lexicons written by SDAs. If you can't trust a lexicon, you can't read the Bible in the original languages - not even if your mother tongue is Greek or Hebrew, for ancient Greek and Hebrew are very different from modern Greek and Hebrew. For those who have studied Greek and Hebrew, mere versions of the Bible are not enough, and lexicons are very useful tools.
As to Ellen White, she not only read but also quoted many Sundaykeepers - and many of them were her contemporaries. She had in her library, for instance, the Analytical Concordance of Robert Young, a biblical scholar (1822-1888). Surprisingly, she had in her library many books written by Brooke F. Westcott.
I didn't understand the reaction against Thayer. By the way, the definition he gave of the word anomia is biblically correct.


Rosangela,

Lexicons are the new battlefield. Satan can change our doctrines by changing the definitions. It's as simple as that. Consider some of the definition problems we've run into here on this forum, e.g. "arbitrary." When we cannot agree on a definition, confusion results. Satan is the author of confusion.

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
By the way, the definition he gave of the word anomia is biblically correct.


Based on what? How would you know? What is your standard? If Thayer's dictionary is used as your standard, that would be circular reasoning.

Thayer was a revisionist. The more I have learned about these men, the more I have seen their disregard of the jots and tittles that are so important to God. How can I, then, trust him to be faithful in other "tittles" when it comes to meanings or such?

I'm not at all surprised if Thayer presents a lot of truth. That is the devil's best way of introducing error--mix it with a larger dose of genuine truth so that people see the truth and assume the whole is truth.

As for "anomia," it means: "transgression of the law," not "lawlessness." I could see phrasing it as "against the law." That might be nearly the same as "transgression." But "lawlessness" is too ambiguous.

Consider: "And because iniquity G458 shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold." The "iniquity" here is "anomia." But it is NOT telling us that the love of many will grow cold for lack of laws!

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: dedication] #165324
05/23/14 06:02 AM
05/23/14 06:02 AM
Johann  Offline
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Retired Pastor
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
I just took a peek at the list of books in the Ellen G White libraries. She did have a number of Bible Commentaries, and would you believe it: A Greek Grammar.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: Johann] #165327
05/23/14 07:19 AM
05/23/14 07:19 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Sounds good. I noticed there was nothing attributed to Thayer in her library. Of course, would it have mattered? Having something in one's library is no indication of one's own views. As an example, I keep a "Book of Mormon" for reference when working with Mormons, but I am hardly a believer in it. Far from it. I expect most everyone, including Mrs. White, would find utility in some books that were not believed/accepted as truth.

As for Mrs. White, she had books containing writings of such men as Thomas Paine, Plato, Machiavelli, Ralph Waldo Emerson, Aristotle, and many others whom Mrs. White would probably not recommend that we should read.

So, what is the point of seeing what she had in her library? This is just an attempt to put up a strawman argument, I think.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: dedication] #165328
05/23/14 08:56 AM
05/23/14 08:56 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Originally Posted By: Martin Luther
Originally Posted By: St. Augustine
I have learned to render to the inspired Scriptures alone the homage of a firm belief that they have never erred: as to others, I do not believe in the things they teach, simply because it is they who teach them.


As for Thayer, he did not believe that the scriptures never erred. Perhaps he helped them err.

smile

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: dedication] #165331
05/23/14 12:43 PM
05/23/14 12:43 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Active Member 2019

Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
.
.
.
Haven't we strayed somewhat from the topic: "2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law"?
.
.
.

Now, I contend:

1. that the Law of Christ is the LAW OF LOVE,
2. that the Ten Commandments (as all of the OT) were given to teach LOVE,
3. that Christ revealed that LOVE, for our example,
4. that we who believe will not be judged (having passed from the condemnation of death to the hope of eternal life through our faith by the grace of God),
5. that, being full of LOVE, we naturally do not sin, hence the commandment that "Ye love one another as I have loved you" and again, "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one for another",
6. that specifically about the Sabbath:

a) it was given as a safeguard against forgetfulness of our Creator, and
b) it remains forever among His people, for those who LOVE HIM.

The very foundation of THE THRONE OF OUR GOD IS LOVE (Rev. 22:1), not the Decalogue, not legalism and certainly not fear (2 Cor. 13:11, 1 John 4:17-18).

///

Last edited by James Peterson; 05/23/14 12:52 PM.
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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: Green Cochoa] #165343
05/23/14 09:17 PM
05/23/14 09:17 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Lexicons are the new battlefield.

GC, I see the perspective of someone who has studied biblical languages and the perspetive of someone who hasn't is completely different, so sincerely I don't think it's worthwhile going on with this discussion about Thayer and lexicons. About the word anomia, just a few remarks. The prefix "a" is a negation; it means "not," "without," and expresses the opposite meaning. For instance, the noun acephaly comes from the ancient Greek akephalia, a (not) + kephale (head) = the opposite of having a head; headlessness.
Adikia - a feminine noun, formed by a (not) + dike (justice) = the opposite of justice or righteousness; injustice; without justice; unrighteousness.
Thus,
Anomia - a feminine noun, formed by a (not) + nomos (law) = the opposite of law; lawlessness; without law; illegality; iniquity.
In fact, adikia and anomia are synonims.
The fact of being without righteousness (adikia) doesn't mean that righteousness doesn't exist; it means that the person is ignorant of righteousness, and so lives naturally in unrighteousness; or that the person despises righteousness, and lives voluntarily in unrighteousness. The same applies to anomia. Either the person is ignorant of the law, and so lives naturally in discrepancy with it (see Romans 2); or the person lives voluntarily in discrepancy with, or transgression of, it.

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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: Green Cochoa] #165345
05/23/14 10:19 PM
05/23/14 10:19 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
As for "anomia," it means: "transgression of the law," not "lawlessness." I could see phrasing it as "against the law." That might be nearly the same as "transgression." But "lawlessness" is too ambiguous.

Consider: "And because iniquity G458 shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold." The "iniquity" here is "anomia." But it is NOT telling us that the love of many will grow cold for lack of laws!

Anomia is translated "transgression" only in 1Jn 3:4. It's translated once as "unrighteousness" (2Cor 6:14). The other dozen times it is translated "iniquity."

Given that, I believe it is more a state than an action. Lawlessness expresses that better than transgression.

Furthermore, I don't know that any student will conclude that "hamartia is anomia" means "sin is without law" given the Biblical context. Even in English, I don't remember ever seeing "lawlessness" used to mean "without law;" rather, it means "being against the law."


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: James Peterson] #165346
05/23/14 10:32 PM
05/23/14 10:32 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
#4. that we who believe will not be judged.
We will not be condemned, but certainly we will be judged.
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.
Jas 2:8-12 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing well. But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty.

Quote:
#5. that, being full of LOVE, we naturally do not sin.

You don’t sin? Every day we grow in love, but this is a process, not a goal we have already achieved, and we will occasionally fail along the process.

Quote:
#6. b) it remains forever among His people, for those who LOVE HIM.

But how does it remain forever? Do you believe the seventh-day sabbath should be kept by those who love Him?

Quote:
The very foundation of THE THRONE OF OUR GOD IS LOVE (Rev. 22:1), not the Decalogue, not legalism and certainly not fear

The foundation of the throne of God is love in its several aspects – truth, mercy, righteousness, justice (Ps 89:14; 97:2). And God’s righteousness is revealed through His law.

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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: asygo] #165347
05/23/14 10:47 PM
05/23/14 10:47 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Furthermore, I don't know that any student will conclude that "hamartia is anomia" means "sin is without law" given the Biblical context. Even in English, I don't remember ever seeing "lawlessness" used to mean "without law;" rather, it means "being against the law."

Yes, "without law" is a literal translation. It could mean "the state of being without law" in the sense of refusing to be ruled by the law. It could also be anti-law or against the law.

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Re: 2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law [Re: dedication] #165360
05/24/14 02:15 AM
05/24/14 02:15 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
Yes, refusing the obey the law. That's lawlessness.

I have never seen "lawlessness" used to mean "lacking law" or "the law doesn't exist."

Last edited by asygo; 05/24/14 02:16 AM.

By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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