We are born with a carnal mind, full of sinful tendencies, full of sinful traits of character; Jesus was born with a holy mind, free of sinful tendencies and sinful traits of character. Are you in agreement, MM? Where are sinful tendencies/traits of character located? In the body or in the mind?

Born-again believers are reborn with a new nature, a new mind, a new heart, new motives, new tastes, new thoughts, new tendencies, new attributes, new traits of character. Their old man traits, habits, and tendencies are crucified. They are dead to sin and awake to righteousness. As they abide in Jesus, as they walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man, as they partake of the divine nature - they are empowered to use their new, sanctified faculties of mind and body to grow in grace and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit "more and more unto the perfect day." Nevertheless, they retain sinful flesh. It continues to tempt them from within to be unlike Jesus. While abiding in Jesus they are empowered to resist the unholy lusts, desires, cravings, clamorings, affections sinful flesh communicates. The following passages are pertinent:


Jesus came in the likeness of a born-again believer - free of selfishness, free of defective traits of character, free of sinful propensities. He never sinned. He developed a perfect character. You asked - "We are born with a carnal mind, full of sinful tendencies, full of sinful traits of character; Jesus was born with a holy mind, free of sinful tendencies and sinful traits of character. Are you in agreement, MM?" Yes, I agree.

You also asked - "Where are sinful tendencies/traits of character located? In the body or in the mind?" Character is the fruit of repetitious choices. It is a compilation of the traits of character we cultivate. 1) Character and 2) traits of character are, therefore, two separate but related aspects of human nature. Character is part of the higher powers, which includes the will, mind, reason, intellect, and conscience.

Sinful tendencies, inclinations, propensities are inherited and tied to specific traits of character. Sinful tendencies, inclinations, propensities are fortified and strengthened as people cultivate corresponding traits of character which, in turn, are (sinful traits and tendencies, not character) passed onto to their children. Sinful tendencies, inclinations, propensities are part of the lower powers, which includes the appetites, passions, and sinful flesh.

Although the old man traits, habits, and tendencies are crucified when people experience rebirth in God's appointed way they, nonetheless, retain the sinful flesh they fortified and strengthened as they cultivated sinful traits and habits of character. It is the sinful tendencies associated with sinful flesh, not sinful character, that remain to tempt and annoy born-again believers as they abide in Jesus, as they walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man, as they partake of the divine nature. Again, Jesus came in the likeness of a born-again believer.

I agree in principle; in reality, though, Jesus inherited the body of humanity after four thousands of sin and degradation and moral decay.

James, you didn't address each of the following:


Please address them one at a time. Thank you.

Is the mind separate from the body? If so, how does that work?

Where do temptations from from? Are they only external?

I give up, there is no reasoning with you Mt Man. You are so convicted in your own thoughts. There is not one place in all of scripture or the spirit of prophecy that says Jesus had "sin in His sinful flesh", you are determined to present things in a manner that God does not appreciate. Of this I am thoroughly convicted. So much so it makes me guarded against everything you say, which I know is my own fault, but I am not condemned for my animosity against you.

APL haven't you heard of the "inward man"? That is the whole point. There is a division. The spirit warreth after the flesh and the flesh after the Spirit.


Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

"When the grace of God takes possession of the heart, it is seen that the inherited and cultivated tendencies to wrong must be crucified. A new life, under new control, must begin in the soul. All that is done must be done to the glory of God. This work includes the outward as well as the inward man. The entire being, body, soul, and spirit, must be brought into subjection to God, to be used by Him as an instrument of righteousness.{MYP 68.3}
The natural man is not subject to the law of God; neither, indeed, of himself, can he be. But by faith he who has been renewed lives day by day the life of Christ. Day by day he shows that he realizes that he is God’s property.{MYP 68.4}
Body and soul belong to God. He gave His Son for the redemption of the world, and because of this we have been granted a new lease of life, a probation in which to develop characters of perfect loyalty. God has redeemed us from the slavery of sin, and has made it possible for us to live regenerated, transformed lives of service. {MYP 68.5}

"Of the hitherto polluted spring at Jericho, the Lord declared, “I have healed these waters; there shall not be from thence any more death or barren land.” The polluted stream represents the soul that is separate from God. Sin not only shuts away from God, but destroys in the human soul both the desire and the capacity for knowing Him. Through sin, the whole human organism is deranged, the mind is perverted, the imagination corrupted; the faculties of the soul are degraded. There is an absence of pure religion, of heart holiness. The converting power of God has not wrought in transforming the character. The soul is weak, and for want of moral force to overcome, is polluted and debased." {PK 233.1}

If through sin "the whole human organism is deranged, the mind is perverted, the imagination corrupted; the faculties of the soul are degraded" then how could Jesus have "sin in his sinful flesh"? His imagination was not corrupt, His faculties were not degraded.

If you both cannot see this then there is no point in trying to reason with you.

They are interrelated, they react upon each other; but the body can only control the mind because sin has perverted the mind; the mind became weak.

The natural mind leans toward pleasure and self-gratification. {HP 160.2}

The natural mind is selfish, and sinful tendencies are in the mind.

Self-indulgence, love of pleasure, enmity, pride, self-esteem, envy, jealousy, will grow spontaneously, without example and teaching. In our present fallen state all that is needed is to give up the mind and character to its natural tendencies. {HP 195.4}

What happens is that children inherit from parents qualities of mind of a low order:

The parents give the stamp of character to their children. Therefore children that are born of these parents inherit from them qualities of mind which are of a low, base order. {2T 475.2}

As to temptations:

The corruption of the world is seeking to steal our senses; all the unholy influences on every side are working to hold us to a low, earthly level--blinding our sensibilities, degrading our desires, enfeebling our conscience, and crippling our religious faculties by urging us to give sway to the lower nature. Corruptions around us find corruptions within. Each works upon the other. {19MR 346.1}

So we inherit from our parents our fallen nature. Do note:

The story of Bethlehem is an exhaustless theme. In it is hidden "the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God." Romans 11:33. We marvel at the Saviour's sacrifice in exchanging the throne of heaven for the manger, and the companionship of adoring angels for the beasts of the stall. Human pride and self-sufficiency stand rebuked in His presence. Yet this was but the beginning of His wonderful condescension. It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man's nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. {DA 48.5}

We inherit low qualities of mind from our parents - but we don't know exactly how this happens, for EGW says that the mother can transmit these for the child while in the womb (obviously after the child has been conceived). However, Jesus didn't inherit low qualities of mind from His mother. His mind was perfect, for it was divine.

Rosangela, you may not know, but much is now known of how this happens in the area of Epigenetics. And these epigenetic effects can persists for several generates, dare I say, to the 3th and the 4th generation?

You say did not inherit low qualities. What exactly did He then inherit? Did you not read the quote of EGW above? Stunning is it not? Was he not make like his brothers? Hebrews 2:17 Why in all things it behooved him to be made like to his brothers, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

But you say no, He was not like us. You quote the Baker letter, but do not include the context. You also might want to observe what others at the same time as Baker were saying and what did EGW writing against them for their writings? Nothing. This includes as I have quoted, Jones, Waggoner and Prescott. Baker's beliefs were different, he apparently believed in Christ's adoption, such that before His adoption, He was like us in that we acted out our sin. Christ never did, though He came in sinful (full of sin) flesh. And to change the definition of word such as sinful (full of sin) to say that "sinful" does not mean full of sin, is interesting.

From a sermon by AT Jones:
Again on page 55, "Steps to Christ:" {February 14, 1893 ATJ, GCDB 264.9}
"Jesus loves to have us come just as we are, sinful." {February 14, 1893 ATJ, GCDB 264.10}
What is "sinful?" [Congregation: "Full of sin."] Does Jesus love to have us come to Him just as we are, full of sin? [Congregation: "Yes."] Does He? [Congregation: "Yes, sir."] Let us be Protestants. Let us have the third angel's message, which is the gospel of Jesus Christ. {February 14, 1893 ATJ, GCDB 264.11}

What is sinful? [Congregation: "Full of sin."] Yep.

And read: Hebrews 5:2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.

Only some of our infirmities?