Arnold, thank you for the discussion. I appreciate the restraint you exercised in withholding sarcasm and personal attacks. All too often people who disagree passionately devolve into monsters calling names and acting unlike Jesus. You are a true man of God. Again, thank you.

James, just ask APL, Arnold, and Rosangela - they will tell you I have not changed or softened my understanding of sinful flesh. I'm sorry you think so. Having sinful flesh is not a sin or a source of guilt, corruption, or contamination. As such, Jesus could, like born-again believers, possess sinful flesh without incurring guilt, corruption, or contamination. Sinful "flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God." You seem to think possessing sinful flesh is, in and of itself, a source of guilt, corruption, and contamination - even if its unholy lusts, desires, cravings, clamorings, affections are successfully resisted, subdued, subjected to sanctified higher powers. The truth is, however, very much the opposite. Again, having sinful flesh is not a source of guilt, corruption, or contamination. The fact Jesus possessed sinful flesh is proof. The fact the 144,000 will possess it after probation closes is proof.

Perhaps not you, but both Arnold and Rosangela believe born-again, changed, converted, transformed believers are incapable of experiencing "a life pure and holy, free from any taint of sin." According to their understanding of sin, anyone who possesses sinful flesh is innately, inherently, intrinsically guilty of sin, corruption, and contamination - even if they refuse to act out the unholy lusts, desires, cravings, clamorings, affections sinful flesh communicates. The clamorings of sinful flesh, being tempted from within, constitutes sin and guilt. The "motions of sin . . . the sin that dwelleth in me . . . that is, in my flesh" in and of itself, according to them, counts as sin and guilt. Therefore, "a life pure and holy, free from any taint of sin" is, of course, impossible. God can legally declare it, but they cannot in reality experience it. Everything they think, say, and do is stained with sin and selfishness - including the righteous results of abiding in Jesus.

Here we get down to it. You are so sure of yourself. You act pious thanking Arnold for not devolving into a monster. Then you say something completely against the faith of Christ.

"Therefore, "a life pure and holy, free from any taint of sin" is, of course, impossible. God can legally declare it, but they cannot in reality experience it. Everything they think, say, and do is stained with sin and selfishness - including the righteous results of abiding in Jesus."

They? Not you?

I cannot even begin to share how wrong you are here.

God said through His servant...

"We are to form characters free from sin—characters made righteous in and by the grace of Christ.... Our hearts are to be cleansed from all impurity in the blood shed to take away sin. {CH 633.3

Jesus "be ye therefore perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect" so you directly contradict what Jesus Himself said.

It is impossible in ourselves to be perfect and we should not look to ourselves to think we are perfect, but it is the perfect will of God for us to remain in perfection after He forgives us. That is the whole intent of Atonement. We see our defiled nature, repent, receive forgiveness and walk in that light. Jesus didn't have to go through any of that yet you say He was exactly like fallen men in every way.

You say Jesus was exactly like fallen man yet say it is impossible for fallen men to be free of sin? That sounds like a huge contradiction.

Pay special attention to this next quote mt man.

"God’s ideal for His children is higher than the highest human thought can reach. “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” This command is a promise. The plan of redemption contemplates our complete recovery from the power of Satan. Christ always separates the contrite soul from sin. He came to destroy the works of the devil, and He has made provision that the Holy Spirit shall be imparted to every repentant soul, to keep him from sinning.{DA 311.2}
The tempter’s agency is not to be accounted an excuse for one wrong act. Satan is jubilant when he hears the professed followers of Christ making excuses for their deformity of character. It is these excuses that lead to sin. There is no excuse for sinning. A holy temper, a Christlike life, is accessible to every repenting, believing child of God.{DA 311.3}
The ideal of Christian character is Christlikeness. As the Son of man was perfect in His life, so His followers are to be perfect in their life. Jesus was in all things made like unto His brethren. He became flesh, even as we are. He was hungry and thirsty and weary. He was sustained by food and refreshed by sleep. He shared the lot of man; yet He was the blameless Son of God. He was God in the flesh. His character is to be ours. The Lord says of those who believe in Him, “I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.” 2 Corinthians 6:16.{DA 311.4}

Yet you say it is IMPOSSIBLE to attain this? I have experienced this and I shared it with you in some of my first posts. When I was led to the Sabbath and became an SDA God took away my desire for sin. He took away my guilt. I was given complete victory over alcohol and drugs and have not gone back. There is a dividing from the lusts of the flesh in Christ. I have fallen to temptation on other levels that He has also given the victory over in my sanctification, but I am still a work in progress.

The only thing impossible for God to do is to force us to be perfect. Then it would not be perfection.

AND He does not go back in time and take away our past sins, He makes propitiation for them. He shows us how JESUS suffered the consequences of our sins. That is how our prayers come before Him defiled, needing to be cleansed.

It is after His propitiation is accepted by His children that we are cleansed. If we remain in this light and do not stray from the path and sin again then we remain in His Son's perfection.

You might be surprised to learn I believe something very different than what you seem to think I believe. Here's something I posted earlier on this thread:

Again, you might be surprised to learn I do not believe Jesus is like sinners in every way. Instead, I believe Jesus is like born-again, changed, converted, transformed believers - free of sin, free of defective traits of character, free of sinful propensities. And, like them, Jesus possessed the "likeness of sinful flesh". Like them, Jesus resisted the unholy clamorings of sinful flesh.

James, read the post again. Please note the highlighted parts. I also added brackets to help clarify who believes what.


You mistakenly concluded I believe what Arnold and Rosangela believe. I was sharing what they believe - not what I believe.

James, I'm reposting this post because I'm interested in your comments on each point.

WW Prescott.

It was the Word becoming flesh. The Scripture does not leave us in uncertainty as to what kind of flesh and blood this was. "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh." The flesh that Jesus Christ took when he came here was the only flesh that any one could take by being born of a woman, and that was the flesh of sin. No other flesh could be given. It was impossible that one should be born at that time into the human family, and become a member by birth, without taking flesh of sin. When God made man, he made him in his likeness, he was on an elevated plane, and when he fell, he not only changed his plane of living, but in the fall he became bruised and broken and powerless. Jesus Christ came to lift him up, not by standing aloof and giving him good advice, but by identifying himself with man. He did not take the likeness of man just as Adam was before he fell, but he came down to the very plane to which man had fallen, and identified himself with him, and took upon himself the flesh of sin. w. w. p. {March 10, 1896 WWP, ARSH 152.7}

While it is clearer now what your intent of the statement was, the fact that you didn't include yourself when stating it made it confusing and I appologize for rushing to my conclusion, and now I do rember those statements before. So now the only issue at hand is the clarification of the statement "sin in His sinful flesh". I know your intent of using the sinful flesh concept, but saying that He had sin in His flesh does not sit well with the Holy spirit. He did not have sinful propensities and had a perfect character from birth. So saying He had sin in His flesh is also confusing. I would love to be of one accord on this because it is vexing my soul. There is a solution...
Jesus was the second Adam correct? He had the body of sinful Adam but the untainted character of pre fall Adam, correct?
If you agree with this then there is harmony here, but again I must warn you not to write things differently than the apostles and prophets were inspired to. They would never think to say Jesus had sin in His flesh. Jesus retained the innocence of birth throughout His life so it was like He made it possible to recreated all of fallen humanity into born again Christians redeeming fallen flesh but without the guilt a sinner incures, so
He was not LIKE a born again Christian. He gave the example in how to be born again without having to be. He was fallen Adams rebirth not His own. So please stop presenting things in such a confusing manner for the sake of having something new to say and all will be well. Is that ok, or were you sent to cause such discord?