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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: APL]
#165490
05/28/14 05:06 PM
05/28/14 05:06 PM
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OP
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M: The "flesh" referred to in the passage posted above is part of the lower powers, the lower passions, and has its seat in the body. It is not the body itself, not blood, bone, organs, muscles, skin, etc - the stuff that returns to dust when we die. Sinful flesh tempts us from within to indulge our innocent and legitimate needs (appetites and passions) in unChristlike ways. We become consciously aware of its lusts, desires, cravings, clamorings, affections as tempting thoughts and feelings. While abiding in Jesus, the indwelling Holy Spirit empowers us to "abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul".
A: I read this differently. The body is made of flesh. The mind runs on the flesh. However the mind has a will that can be exercised to either follow the lower sinful lusts, or to follow the Spirit via Jesus Christ. I suppose on certain levels the distinction matters. But I suspect in practical terms what matters is we both agree sinful flesh tempts us from within to be unlike Jesus, to indulge our innocent and legitimate needs in sinful ways. We also agree having sinful flesh does not count as sin. Nor do we incur guilt, corruption, or contamination. Sinful flesh is a source of temptation. But it is not a source of sin, guilt, corruption, or contamination. For this reason, Jesus was able to possess sinful flesh, and to be tempted like born-again believers.
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#165492
05/28/14 05:21 PM
05/28/14 05:21 PM
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Rosangela, thank you for sharing what you believe. Unfortunately, we disagree on a fundamental truth.
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#165493
05/28/14 05:31 PM
05/28/14 05:31 PM
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Mike, the impression I get is that you decided to believe that if Christ didn't have exactly the same forms of temptation as you, He can't help you. Then you must make every inspired passage harmonize with this view - and if it doesn't harmonize, then you discard it. Sorry to say that, but, again, this is the impression I get.
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#165497
05/28/14 10:34 PM
05/28/14 10:34 PM
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Rosangela - The BIBLE says that Christ was tempted in the same way as we are - yet never fell for it.
Hebrews 4:15-16 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Rosangela]
#165505
05/29/14 03:25 PM
05/29/14 03:25 PM
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Mike, the impression I get is that you decided to believe that if Christ didn't have exactly the same forms of temptation as you, He can't help you. Then you must make every inspired passage harmonize with this view - and if it doesn't harmonize, then you discard it. Sorry to say that, but, again, this is the impression I get. That's a good guess. Actually, though, I believe the Bible makes it crystal clear Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh and was tempted like a born-again believer. I also believe Ellen White is in harmony with the Bible. Whenever it sounds like she is contradicting the Bible, I choose to believe the problem is with me - not her. Thus, I interpret her statements in harmony with the Bible. I also do the same thing when it sounds like other inspired writers are contradicting the Bible, the problem is with me - not them. I have learned to interpret difficult passages in the light of overwhelming weight of evidence.
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#165510
05/29/14 06:40 PM
05/29/14 06:40 PM
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The problem I see is, you chose your view and then you examine the passages in the light of this view. I think the correct thing to do is to first examine all the passages, and then form a view. I have no problem in harmonizing all the passages you quote with those I quote, but you don't seem able to do the same thing. Instead of harmonizing all the passages you discard those which don't seem to fit your view.
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Rosangela]
#165511
05/29/14 07:30 PM
05/29/14 07:30 PM
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The problem I see is, you chose your view and then you examine the passages in the light of this view. I think the correct thing to do is to first examine all the passages, and then form a view. I have no problem in harmonizing all the passages you quote with those I quote, but you don't seem able to do the same thing. Instead of harmonizing all the passages you discard those which don't seem to fit your view.
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#165512
05/29/14 07:35 PM
05/29/14 07:35 PM
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Rosangela - could it be that you are doing the very think you are accusing MM of doing? DA117 tells us that Christ did not have Adam's pre-fall nature, He took on "degenerate humanity". When the Bible says he was tempted in the same way we are, you say no He was not. What exactly is God trying to save us from?
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#165516
05/29/14 11:49 PM
05/29/14 11:49 PM
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Rosangela - could it be that you are doing the very think you are accusing MM of doing? No, it couldn't be. DA117 tells us that Christ did not have Adam's pre-fall nature Right, but in what aspects? EGW also says that Christ did not have our propensities to sin. And you have to harmonize both sets of statements. The fact is, there is more than one aspect in our nature. We have a physical, an intellectual and a spiritual/moral nature. Do you think Jesus' spiritual nature was like ours? The human nature of Christ was like unto ours. And suffering was really more keenly felt by Him, for His spiritual nature was free from every taint of sin. The aversion to suffering was in proportion to its severity. His desire for the removal of suffering was just as strong as human beings experience. . . . {CTr 268.6}
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#165518
05/30/14 01:04 AM
05/30/14 01:04 AM
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LOL - - are you sure? I agree that His character was perfect, perfect in sinful flesh. Again - What did Christ come to save us from? What is why He came as He did and took on our sinful flesh as He did. Christ has redeemed us; our very flesh He has saved at an infinite cost, giving His own flesh for the life of the world. {SpM 209.2} Christ has redeemed us; our very flesh He has saved at an infinite cost, giving His own flesh for the life of the world. {SpM 209.2} (however, Isaiah 6:10 or Matthew 13:15 when Christ quotes it comes to mind)
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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