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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#165582
06/01/14 12:54 PM
06/01/14 12:54 PM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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PS - If, as some seem to think, people inherit the character of their parents, it stands to reason will they answer for it in judgment. As you know, in judgment, it is character that determines eternal destiny. This idea does not, of course, enjoy biblical support.
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#165583
06/01/14 01:30 PM
06/01/14 01:30 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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I thought it was faith in Christ which determined eternal destiny... The faith of believing parents covers the children. But we don't know whether children of unbelieving parents will be saved.
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#165584
06/01/14 01:33 PM
06/01/14 01:33 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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The context of Romans 6-8 clearly teaches Jesus condemned the sin in sinful flesh by refusing to cherish or act out its unholy lusts and affections. He bore our sins in sinful flesh in the same way priests bore sins in their sinful flesh when they ate portions of animal sacrifices. MM, The priest bore sins by imputation, in the same way that Christ bore them.
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#165586
06/01/14 02:51 PM
06/01/14 02:51 PM
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SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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PS - If, as some seem to think, people inherit the character of their parents, it stands to reason will they answer for it in judgment. As you know, in judgment, it is character that determines eternal destiny. This idea does not, of course, enjoy biblical support. Which idea are you speaking about, that we are punished for the sins of the parents? It seems you are saying that and I agree we are not punished for that. We do however generally inherit traits of character from our parents, what we do with them is what matters. The prophecy of Noah was no arbitrary denunciation of wrath or declaration of favor. It did not fix the character and destiny of his sons. But it showed what would be the result of the course of life they had severally chosen and the character they had developed. It was an expression of God's purpose toward them and their posterity in view of their own character and conduct. As a rule, children inherit the dispositions and tendencies of their parents, and imitate their example; so that the sins of the parents are practiced by the children from generation to generation. [inherited and cultivated] Thus the vileness and irreverence of Ham were reproduced in his posterity, bringing a curse upon them for many generations. "One sinner destroyeth much good." Ecclesiastes 9:18. {PP 118.2} Children generally inherit the peculiar traits of character which the parents possess, and in addition to all this, many come up without any redeeming influence around them. [inherited and cultivated] They are too frequently huddled together in poverty and filth. With such surroundings and examples, what can be expected of the children when they come upon the stage of action, but that they will sink lower in the scale of moral worth than their parents, and their deficiencies in every respect be more apparent than theirs? Thus has this class perpetuated their deficiencies, and cursed their posterity with poverty, imbecility, and degradation. These should not have married. At least, they should not have brought innocent children into existence to share their misery, and hand down their own deficiencies, with accumulating wretchedness, from generation to generation, which is one great cause of the degeneracy of the race. {2SM 421.3} How to get out of this downward spiral?
But Christ has given us no assurance that to attain perfection of character is an easy matter. A noble, all-round character is not inherited. It does not come to us by accident. A noble character is earned by individual effort through the merits and grace of Christ. God gives the talents, the powers of the mind; we form the character. It is formed by hard, stern battles with self. Conflict after conflict must be waged against hereditary tendencies. We shall have to criticize ourselves closely, and allow not one unfavorable trait to remain uncorrected. {COL 331.1} The flesh, in which the soul tabernacles, belongs to God. Every sinew, every muscle is His. In no case are we by neglect or abuse to weaken a single organ. We are to co-operate with God by keeping the body in the very best possible condition of health, that it may be a temple where the Holy Ghost may abide, moulding, according to the will of God, every physical and spiritual power. {BEcho, October 15, 1900 par. 7} "Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me." It is inevitable that children should suffer from the consequences of parental wrongdoing, but they are not punished for the parents' guilt, except as they participate in their sins. It is usually the case, however, that children walk in the steps of their parents. By inheritance and example the sons become partakers of the father's sin. Wrong tendencies, perverted appetites, and debased morals, as well as physical disease and degeneracy, are transmitted as a legacy from father to son, to the third and fourth generation. This fearful truth should have a solemn power to restrain men from following a course of sin. {PP 306.3}The mind must be stored with pure principles. Truth must be graven on the tablets of the soul. The memory must be filled with the precious truths of the word. Then, like beautiful gems, these truths will flash out in the life. {BEcho, October 15, 1900 par. 8} How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. {DA 175.5}
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Rosangela]
#165587
06/01/14 02:52 PM
06/01/14 02:52 PM
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SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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The context of Romans 6-8 clearly teaches Jesus condemned the sin in sinful flesh by refusing to cherish or act out its unholy lusts and affections. He bore our sins in sinful flesh in the same way priests bore sins in their sinful flesh when they ate portions of animal sacrifices. MM, The priest bore sins by imputation, in the same way that Christ bore them. Are you saying Christ did not really bear them?
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#165591
06/02/14 12:57 AM
06/02/14 12:57 AM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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I'm saying He bore them by imputation, not in some physical way. He experienced the guilt for our sins and the wrath of God, and died because of that. In His humanity Christ was tried with as much greater temptation, with as much more persevering energy than man is tried by the evil one, as His nature was greater than man’s. This is a deep mysterious truth, that Christ is bound to humanity by the most sensitive sympathies. The evil works, the evil thoughts, the evil words of every son and daughter of Adam press upon His divine soul. The sins of men called for retribution upon Himself, for He had become man’s substitute, and took upon Him the sins of the world. He bore the sins of every sinner, for all transgressions were imputed unto Him. {OFC 119.5}
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#165592
06/02/14 01:09 AM
06/02/14 01:09 AM
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SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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I'm saying He bore them by imputation, not in some physical way. He experienced the guilt for our sins and the wrath of God, and died because of that. 2 Corinthians 5:21 For he has made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. [nah - He was not really MADE to be sin because as Rosangela says, it was not something physical]1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bore our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live to righteousness: by whose stripes you were healed. [nah - He did not REALLY bear our sins IN HIS BODY, because it is not something physical]Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? [nah - it is not a real body of death, God is the killer, not the sinful body]What did Christ come to save us from?????
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#165594
06/02/14 04:44 AM
06/02/14 04:44 AM
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Banned SDA Active Member 2015
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Posts: 3,613
USA
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What Mt Man is saying that you want to generalize and compare it to the beliefs of Joe Crews from Amazing Facts, is that Mt Man Says Jesus had "sin in HIS sinful flesh". The context of Romans 6-8 clearly teaches Jesus condemned the sin in sinful flesh by refusing to cherish or act out its unholy lusts and affections. He bore our sins in sinful flesh in the same way priests bore sins in their sinful flesh when they ate portions of animal sacrifices. do you think Jesus came from the womb with the sins of the world on His head? Jesus did bear our sins till the three days and nights of the sign of Jonah. The fact that you don't know this speaks volumes. " In the garden of Gethsemane Christ suffered in man’s stead, and the human nature of the Son of God staggered under the terrible horror of the guilt of sin, until from His pale and quivering lips was forced the agonizing cry, “O My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from Me:” but if there be no other way by which the salvation of man may be accomplished, then “not as I will, but as Thou wilt.” Human nature would then and there have died under the horror of the sense of sin, had not an angel from heaven strengthened Him to bear the agony. The power that inflicted retributive justice upon man’s substitute and surety, was the power that sustained and upheld the suffering One under the tremendous weight of wrath that would have fallen upon a sinful world. Christ was suffering the death that was pronounced upon the transgressors of God’s law." {BTS September 1, 1915, par. 5 And if I thought for one moment it would be taken seriously and prayerfully by you I would be at your command and answer all your questions, but since you don't answer any of my questions why should I answer yours? If you gave your word that you would closely pay attention and prayerfully contemplate the issues I would take you seriously. But since you disregard most of what I spend hours praying for and researching I find it quite disconcerting. Go back in this thread and count how many subjects I addressed that you skipped over without a thought. Everything you say I pray about. Do you? I wouldn't lie in your response if I were you
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#165597
06/02/14 11:59 AM
06/02/14 11:59 AM
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SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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The Saviour took upon Himself the infirmities of humanity and lived a sinless life. He did not live a sinless life, THEN take the infirmities of humanity on Himself.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: APL]
#165599
06/02/14 01:21 PM
06/02/14 01:21 PM
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Banned SDA Active Member 2015
3500+ Member
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
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The Saviour took upon Himself the infirmities of humanity and lived a sinless life. He did not live a sinless life, THEN take the infirmities of humanity on Himself. That is in a different context. He took on the infirmities of the flesh, then He bore our individual sins. Why don't you read what was written? The Lord's servant clearly says Jesus was suffering the wrath of God in Gethsemane carrying the weight of sin. Then He carried them to the cross to die with them to destroy death. The wrath of the Father was not felt by Christ His whole life was it?
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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