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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: APL] #165600
06/02/14 01:30 PM
06/02/14 01:30 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
The Saviour took upon Himself the infirmities of humanity and lived a sinless life. He did not live a sinless life, THEN take the infirmities of humanity on Himself.


“The garden of Eden with its foul blot of disobedience is to be carefully studied and compared with the garden of Gethsemane where the world’s Redeemer suffered superhuman agony when the sins of the whole world were rolled upon Him.” {Ms 1, 1892}

Have you followed him in the garden of Gethsemane? Have you seen the bloody sweat bedew the ground?”
{RH July 12, 1892, par. 6}

In answer to this question from Mrs White I would venture to guess that most of the people on this website would not be able to answer yes to that question, especially Mt Man and APL.

But this subject was placed on my heart from God and He gave me a vision to see the event perfectly, then sent me on a journey of discovery to find all the evidence that this is perfect truth, but men like you argue against it. For shame.

Here is the blog I was inspired to write after God gave me the vision of Jesus sweating blood in Gethsemane.

http://redheifersbloodysweat.blogspot.com/2011/12/red-heifer.html

If you cannot see the truth in this and continue to argue you are not being led by the Spirit of God. And that IS a faithful witness. This is present truth, and those who argue are going to be lost.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: jamesonofthunder] #165605
06/02/14 04:37 PM
06/02/14 04:37 PM
dedication  Online Content
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Originally Posted By: Jamessonofthunder
to say Mt Man is presenting "a fundamental belief of the far conservative side of Adventism" seems to be an over generalization.

Quote from Joe Crews; "If Jesus actually inherited the compromised nature of Adam, then why didn't He sin like the rest of Adam's descendants? Because He was filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb and possessed a fully surrendered will and sanctified human nature. May we partake of that same power to keep us from sinning? Yes. Jesus, in living His life of victory over sin, did not utilize His divinity but confined Himself to the same power available to us through conversion and sanctification."

I believe I would stand completely justified in saying that this is a huge advantage, the fact that Jesus was born with the Holy Spirit that we must acquire after birth. It is because of that wonderful advantage that gives us hope in following His divine example. We seek reconciliation with God in this heavenly advantage. The example strengthens us to be delivered from sin.


But isn't that the same as what Mt. Man is presenting? -- Jesus had the "born again" life, "filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb" and thus is the example as to how we as "born again" sanctified Christians need to live?

Jesus "inherited the compromised nature of Adam" but was born-again "filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb"... "If Jesus had any advantage over other men it was simply that His inherent human nature was never further debilitated by personal indulgence in sin." (quoting from Joe Crews)

I don't think the issue is "original guilt", but rather inherited natures. What nature is it that a person inherits from their parents?








Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #165609
06/02/14 05:21 PM
06/02/14 05:21 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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James, did you overlook this post?

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
1) Does sinful flesh cease tempting believers from within when they experience conversion?

2) Was Jesus ever tempted to do something inherently evil?

3) Also, do you think having sinful flesh counts as sin and guilt - even if its sinful desires are not cherished or acted out?

J: He was tempted EXTERNALLY! Did Jesus offer sacrifice?

James, it would be helpful if you answered the questions posted above. Also, answer the question - Why did Jesus get baptized?

PS - You have not posted inspired passages supporting the idea Jesus was not tempted like born-again believers are tempted. Bear in mind all temptations begin as an unholy thought and feeling.

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Rosangela] #165610
06/02/14 05:41 PM
06/02/14 05:41 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
M: If, as some seem to think, people inherit the character of their parents, it stands to reason will they answer for it in judgment. As you know, in judgment, it is character that determines eternal destiny. This idea does not, of course, enjoy biblical support.

R: I thought it was faith in Christ which determined eternal destiny.

It's both - faith which works by love. It is character that decides destiny.

Quote:
The characters we form here will decide our eternal destiny. {RH, June 11, 1901 par. 4}

The gospel of Christ is not only to be believed, but it is to be acted upon. We are to be doers of the word; and in doing or not doing according to the instruction of Christ, we are deciding our eternal destiny for life or death. {ST, July 30, 1894 par. 9}

The conversation we have by the fireside, the books we read, the business we transact, are all agents in forming our characters, and day by day decide our eternal destiny. {YI, November 23, 1893 par. 3}

Therefore Christ lifts the veil from the future and bids all to behold that it is character, not position, which decides man's destiny. {COL 122.2}

Christ Himself will decide who are worthy to dwell with the family of heaven. He will judge every man according to his words and his works. Profession is as nothing in the scale. It is character that decides destiny. {COL 74.4}

You yourselves are responsible for the kind of character you build. . . You yourselves decide your own eternal destiny. {FE 245.1}

Dear youth, you are now deciding your own eternal destiny. You must put persistent effort into your Christian life if you would perfect a right character. It will be to your eternal loss if you have a dwarfed, weakly, babyish religious experience. {FE 303.1}

It is by the daily transactions of life, by the spirit we manifest, that we determine our eternal destiny. {RH, September 17, 1895 par. 10}

God would have us learn the solemn lesson that we are working out our own destiny. The character we form in this life decides whether or not we are fitted to live through the eternal ages. {TM 379.3}

For a little time the Lord allows man to be his steward, that he may test his character. In that time man decides his eternal destiny. {RH, May 15, 1900 par. 9}

Character must be formed by us as individuals. It cannot be transferred to another, even if the possessor were willing to make the sacrifice. There is much we can do for each other while mercy still lingers. We can represent the character of Christ. We can give faithful warnings to the erring. We can reprove, rebuke, with all long-suffering and doctrine, bringing the doctrines of Holy Writ home to the heart. We can give heartfelt sympathy. We can pray with and for one another. By living a circumspect life, by maintaining a holy conversation, we may give an example of what a Christian should be; but no person can give to another his own mold of character. Let us duly consider the fact that we are to be saved, not as companies, but as individuals. We shall be judged according to the character we have formed. It is perilous to neglect to prepare the soul for eternity, and to put off making our peace with God until upon a dying bed. It is by the daily transactions of life, by the spirit we manifest, that we determine our eternal destiny. He who is faithful in that which is least, is faithful also in much. If we have made Christ our pattern, if we have walked and worked as he has given us an example in his own life, we shall be able to meet the solemn surprises that will come upon us in our experience, and say from our heart, "Not my will, but thine, be done." {RH, September 17, 1895 par. 10}

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Rosangela] #165611
06/02/14 05:51 PM
06/02/14 05:51 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
M: The context of Romans 6-8 clearly teaches Jesus condemned the sin in sinful flesh by refusing to cherish or act out its unholy lusts and affections. He bore our sins in sinful flesh in the same way priests bore sins in their sinful flesh when they ate portions of animal sacrifices.

R: The priest bore sins by imputation, in the same way that Christ bore them.

"Christ did not make believe take human nature; He did verily take it. He did in reality possess human nature. "As the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same" (Hebrews 2:14). {1SM 247.1} Jesus inherited the sins of the world. He bore them in His body in sinful flesh. "Sin that dwelleth in me . . . that is, in my flesh". Sin dwells in the flesh. Jesus partook of the same. Inherited sin does not count as sinning or guilt or condemnation or corruption or contamination. No one is guilty of sin until they themselves sin. "All have sinned," therefore, everyone is guilty of sin because they themselves have sinned - not because they inherited sin and sinful traits and sinful tendencies.

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: jamesonofthunder] #165612
06/02/14 06:13 PM
06/02/14 06:13 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
MM, do you think Jesus came from the womb with the sins of the world on His head? Jesus did bear our sins till the three days and nights of the sign of Jonah.

Yes, I believe Jesus bore the sins of the world in His body in sinful flesh from the womb to the tomb. Listen:

Quote:
With the terrible weight of the sins of the world upon Him, Christ withstood the test upon appetite, upon the love of the world, and upon that love of display which leads to presumption. {DA 116.4}

The weight of the sins of the world was pressing His soul, and His countenance expressed unutterable sorrow, a depth of anguish that fallen man had never realized. He felt the overwhelming tide of woe that deluged the world. He realized the strength of indulged appetite and unholy passion which controlled the world and had brought upon man inexpressible suffering. {Con 36.2}

His sacrifice consisted not merely in leaving the royal courts of heaven, in being tried by wicked men as a criminal and pronounced guilty, and in being delivered up to die as a malefactor; but in bearing the weight of the sins of the world. {GW92 69.1}

On Calvary's cross the weight of the sins of the world rested upon his soul. {RH, July 12, 1892 par. 6}

Please answer the following questions:

1) "The weight of the sins of the world was pressing His soul, and His countenance expressed unutterable sorrow, a depth of anguish that fallen man had never realized." When and where did this happen?

2) "He felt the overwhelming tide of woe that deluged the world." How and why was this possible?

3) "He realized the strength of indulged appetite and unholy passion which controlled the world and had brought upon man inexpressible suffering." How and why was this possible?

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #165613
06/02/14 07:47 PM
06/02/14 07:47 PM
APL  Offline
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The evil one has consistently masked the nature of sin. (see {GC 569.1})

I have asked what Jesus came to save, and no one wants to bite. Christ did not come to save us from The Father and Himself. Christ came to save us from SIN. Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and you shall call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

What is the nature of sin? What is the consequences of sin?

MM quoted Romans 7 above. Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwells no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. Romans 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me.

Christ took on this flesh with all its sin, but never participated in it (paraphrasing EGW) What did Christ come save us from? Christ has redeemed us; our very flesh He has saved at an infinite cost, giving His own flesh for the life of the world. {SpM 209.2} Satan's rebellion was to be a lesson to the universe through all coming ages--a perpetual testimony to the nature of sin and its terrible results. {PP 42.4}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #165615
06/02/14 08:24 PM
06/02/14 08:24 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

"Christ did not make believe take human nature; He did verily take it. He did in reality possess human nature. "As the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same" (Hebrews 2:14). {1SM 247.1} Jesus inherited the sins of the world. He bore them in His body in sinful flesh. "Sin that dwelleth in me . . . that is, in my flesh". Sin dwells in the flesh. Jesus partook of the same. Inherited sin does not count as sinning or guilt or condemnation or corruption or contamination. No one is guilty of sin until they themselves sin. "All have sinned," therefore, everyone is guilty of sin because they themselves have sinned - not because they inherited sin and sinful traits and sinful tendencies.


Jesus took our flesh and blood.

There you go making it sound as if sin resides in our flesh again when you have already quoted Mrs White saying the body of it self is not sinful.

You cant have it both ways.

The "flesh" is the body, flesh and bone, but to have a flesh driven mind is where sin lays.

You are so immature in your perception.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: jamesonofthunder] #165616
06/02/14 10:26 PM
06/02/14 10:26 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
You are so immature in your perception.

You are so cruel in your condescension.

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #165617
06/02/14 11:42 PM
06/02/14 11:42 PM
Daryl  Online Canadian

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ADMIN HAT ON!!!!!

I want you both, referring to JSOT and MM, to stop goading/flaming each other and stick to discussing the topic.

ADMIN HAT OFF!!!!!


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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