Eventually we need to reconcile the Bible and SOP statements that say the fruit of abiding in Jesus is "pure and holy and undefiled" and "pleasing and acceptable" to God with the one or two SOP statements which seem to imply such fruit is defiled, in need of cleansing, and displeasing and unacceptable to God. So far we have not addressed it.

I addressed it but you ignored it as irrelevant. And in this case, this sub-topic IS irrelevant.

The question is this: Is perfect obedience a requirement for the sinner to participate in the New Covenant? Or is perfect obedience a gift from God to those who are already participating in the New Covenant?

IOW, is perfect obedience our offering to God, or God's gift to us. I think the answer distinguishes between the Old and New Covenant.

I think perfect obedience is both a gift AND a requirement of God. The "requirement" portion can only be fulfilled by Christ, since we have all sinned. Regardless of whether or not we can reach a point of sinlessness, sin is already a blight upon our record from the past, which can only be erased by blood. Jesus' blood can do that for us--this is the "gift."

The "gift" portion includes the ability to live a sinless life. It includes the desire to live such a life. It includes the seed of faith to start us on this journey.

What does the "gift" NOT include? This is where we may see things differently.

I believe God's gift of grace leaves some portions to us, including "acceptance," which is more than a mere "assent" to the truth (as Mrs. White would have put it). Our part also includes the exercise of faith, which includes obedience on our part as an act of reciprocal love. It is our part to resist the devil and his temptations. God will not do the resisting for us. Once we resist, however, He will help us in the fight.

Basically, while it is true that God is in a sense 100% responsible for our salvation, and we do not deserve it in the least, it is also true that God does not just "give" His salvation to everyone. God extends His salvation to those who prize it, seek for it, and work for it. Only those who are thus seeking with all their hearts will find it.

That is the New Covenant. In the New Covenant, the heart is in it. God's laws are treasured, loved, and obeyed from the heart.

The "Old Covenant" was an unfortunate no-man's land of knowing the law, recognizing its validity and understanding its import, but no true desire of the heart to follow it. It consisted in a head knowledge and vain promise to follow the law, without any real motivation or strength to follow through on that promise. In this scenario, it is impossible to keep the law for any length of time.

God says, in the New Covenant, that He will write His law upon our hearts. That's what we need. When we love the law, we will obey it.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I agree with all that. Our differences may simply be in emphasis and/or presentation.

I would say that in this scenario it is impossible to keep the law at all, since the law is primarily a matter of the heart.

But it is possible that there are some who truly desire to keep the law, but are stuck in the OC. I believe the distinction between the covenants lies in the motives.

Galatians 4:21-23 ¶ Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, have ye not heard the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, but he of the freewoman was born through the promise.

Paul uses Abraham's experience to distinguish between the Old and New Covenants. But can we say that, when Abraham fell into the OC, he did not really want to keep the law? Or IOW, was Abraham not trying to keep his end of the deal?

Remember that the Abrahamic covenant was the NC. When God made a covenant with Abraham, it was the NC. Abraham believed God's promise and it was accounted to him as righteousness.

But what was the fundamental problem with the Hagar fiasco? Abraham attempted to help God keep His promise by the power of his own flesh. He went wih the "I'll do my best and God will do the rest" plan. He thought that he could contribute to the promises of the NC. And with that, he fell into Satan's OC trap.

The NC requires that we trust God completely with keeping His end of the deal. If we try to help Him, we show unbelief. Only after Abraham and Sarah arrived at the conclusion that it was impossible for them to have a son did God give them Isaac. We need to realize that it is impossible for us to keep the law perfectly, then God will do for us what is impossible for us to do for ourselves.

But keep in mind that Isaac was not a virgin birth. Abraham and Sarah had work to do. And it was work that was futile from the natural perspective. But it was a work that was used for supernatural accomplishments. This plan is what I call "I'll do my best and God does it ALL."

Remember also that when God made the covenant with Abraham in the first place, he didn't just sit around doing nothing. He sacrificed animals, he kept the birds away, etc. There is work for us to do, but let's not confuse it with God's work.

I don't recall you explaining why Adam's pre-fall sinlessness is relevant. Yes, perfect obedience is required to maintain justification. The fruit of abiding in Jesus does not require justification. The only thing it lacks is merit. Jesus supplies the merit. But in so doing He does not change it from sin to righteousness.

You keep saying the problem is lack of merit. However you also say that sinless Adam had no merit, and had no problem. That you do not see its relevance to your theory, namely that it reveals a fatal inconsistency, is beyond my ability to remedy.

But, let's get back to Christ and His Law.

Satan does not seek to overthrow the law of God. We know this because his greatest instruments are those who keep the law of God. This is what Jesus said of the "church" of his day, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness." (Mat. 23:27-28)

Satan's whole purpose is to have you become self-reliant, independent of God, just like him. He wants you to keep the law of God, but only in so far as it is advantageous to you and to your livelihood. If it is not in any way, then he suggests ways and means to circumvent the law of God without directly challenging it, but enough to suit your own "well-being" in this life.

Satan is God's greatest law keeper. Remember when Aaron had made a golden calf, what the people said? "This is your god, O Israel, that brought you out of the land of Egypt!" So when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it. And Aaron made a proclamation and said, "Tomorrow is a feast to the Lord." Then they rose early on the next day, offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. (Exod. 32:4-6) Listen carefully to the subtext of the words Satan put into their mouths: "We do not need God. We can make it on our own! Yet, we will do everything God has taught us." A great many SDA are like that. They pride themselves as law-keepers, honouring God with their lips, but the love of God is not in them really.

And this is the law of God which Satan is adamant is worthless: LOVE. A heart that is full of empathy, sympathy, unselfishness, desire to give, to listen, to judge righteously .... does not seek its own. Such a thing is anathema to Satan. A heart that is cold and of stone: calculating, judgmental, cultic, ruthlessly narrow-minded, and selfish ... this is his objective in his instruments, whether among the Jews, SDA or Catholics.

But Jesus said, "IF .... IF YOU LOVE ME .... IF YOU LOVE ME .... keep my commandments." (cf. Jude 21)

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I don't think you know anything about God's law. "Satan is God's greatest law keeper." Really?

Try this instead: "Love is the fulfilling of the law," courtesy of Paul.

God's law is ALL about love, no more, no less. You like to belittle other religions, especially Adventists. Yet, you are utterly, incredibly, mind-numbingly clueless. You are neck-deep in a false dichotomy that Satan has used for ages.

Judge righteously, my friend. Read, think and consider the matter. Do not be in haste to condemn. Look at how Paul demonstrates the contrast between law-keeping and true Christianity by his own life.


Do you see the difference in living which he describes between that of verses 5 to 6, and that of verse 7?

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