So you agree, it is US that destroy our own souls in hell, not God. Am I reading you correctly?

Note - articles printed in the Signs go through editors.

EGW: All should be intelligent in regard to the agency by which the soul is destroyed. It is US that destroy ourselves. Futher she writes: God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Everyone who stifles the admonitions of conscience is sowing the seeds of unbelief, and these will produce a sure harvest. By rejecting the first warning from God, Pharaoh of old sowed the seeds of obstinacy, and he reaped obstinacy. God did not compel him to disbelieve. The seed of unbelief which he sowed produced a harvest of its kind. Thus his resistance continued, until he looked upon his devastated land, upon the cold, dead form of his first-born, and the first-born of all in his house and of all the families in his kingdom, until the waters of the sea closed over his horses and his chariots and his men of war. His history is a fearful illustration of the truth of the words that "whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." Galatians 6:7. Did men but realize this, they would be careful what seed they sow. {COL 84.4}

Conclusion - it is not God, men, or Satan, but ourselves that destroy our soul in hell. We all are have this intelligent knowledge of the truth.

I am terribly sorry my post wasn't more clear and that it led you to the wrong conclusion as to what I believe about hellfire and brimstone. I believe it is Jesus who will cast body and soul "alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone." I am happy to learn you do not believe it is Satan who will do it. I cannot envision the unsaved casting themselves alive into the lake of fire.

MM - do the quotes of EGW mean nothing in this discussion? As she said, all need an intelligent understand of the agency by which the soul is destroyed...

APL,

We destroy our own souls by the choices we make. God destroys the souls of all sinners in justice in the end. How is that? Spiritual wisdom must be used to understand this complex riddle that a child could understand when explained to her.

"If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are." (1 Corinthians 3:17)

We can destroy our characters, thus defiling our body temple, and making us unfit to stand in the judgment day in God's presence. His glory will destroy sinners.



The Bible tells us plainly who will destroy whom. Genesis 3:15 is where mankind was first given this message. Man does destroy himself by his choices. But God will destroy man in hell on account of those choices. There's nothing complex here, really.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Green - - you leave out EGW whom I think you believe is inspired where she clearly says, "God destroys no man". And you say, that it not true.

You leave out where she says that God is not the executioner, but you say He is.

You leave out where she says, "Lord will do just what He has declared that He would--He will withdraw His blessings".

The truth is simple that even a child can understand it.

Just because I understand those passages differently from you, does not mean I leave them out or "reject" them. I look at them within their proper context. You pull them out of their context and apply them where they were never meant to be applied. I have a way of understanding those passages that fits with the rest of inspiration. You don't. Your view cannot accept passages that say clearly God punishes and/or destroys. For example, you have little that can be said to justify your position in light of the following passage, and yet you tenaciously hold to your weak claims that God punishes by withdrawing His protection. I suppose it does not matter how God punishes--after all, that's up to Him. But He does punish, which is the answer to this thread's question. See below.



I will not be the one to say God will not do what God says He will do. You are very brave to say such. I'm not that brave.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

But you have...

...the Lord will do just what He has declared that He would--He will withdraw His blessings from the earth and remove His protecting care from those who are rebelling against His law and teaching and forcing others to do the same. Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. He will favor and prosper some in order to further his own designs, and he will bring trouble upon others and lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them. {GC 589.2}

God destroys no man; but when a man stifles conviction, when he turns from evidence, he is sowing unbelief, and will reap as he has sown. {RH, February 17, 1891 par. 2}

I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them. {14MR 3.1}

No. I have not said God will not do those things. Again, you misrepresent my view. Would you be so kind as to tell me where I said He would not withdraw His protection? The problem is context. In one context, God will merely withdraw His protection. Mrs. White never once says this will be His manner of destroying sinners in hell. Please show me where she does say this about hell, if you would be so kind as to help me see the support for your view.

Jesus will not work with us always in the same manner. One time He may plead with us, one time He may ignore or reject our request, to test us. Saying He will do one of these does not preclude the other option. So it is with His manner of destruction. He uses varied ways. The particular group that Mrs. White referred to in saying God would withdraw His protection from them in order to destroy them is all a pre-probation's-close people. After probation closes, His manner will not be the same. This will be clear to those who open their minds to the Holy Spirit as they read and study the issue.

Mrs. White is clear in maintaining BOTH the "withdraw and permit" and the "command destruction" principles by which God destroys. He uses both methods. This, however, is a statement that cannot be made to fit in your view, and you have no answer for it. You've seen it umpteen times, but here it is again.



I would ask you, APL, "Do you believe GC 614.2 is an inspired statement, and that it is true?" If so, I would also ask how commanding holy angels to destroy is the same as to withdraw and permit?

Sending an angel to destroy does not equal withdrawal from the scene so that Satan can do his work.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Revelation 7:1-3 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.


HOW do the 4 angels have power to hurt? By withdrawing.

The judgments of God do not come out directly from the Lord, "but in this way", He withdraws.

Deuteronomy 31:17-18 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come on us, because our God is not among us? 18 And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have worked, in that they are turned to other gods.

God’s anger is activated by the free moral agent in the freedom of choice exercised in the wrong direction. They have rejected God and God honors that choice and withdraws Himself from the role of Protector and Sustainer. Then the other gods, which are no gods, come in to fill the role of God. The result is that “many evils and troubles” come to them and they are “devoured.” It is not God that devours, but the evils and troubles that befall them because God is not in the picture. So, the fundamental difference between the wrath of man and the wrath of God is that for man to destroy He must actively do something. For God to destroy He must passively abandon His position. James says that the wrath of man does not work the righteousness of God (James 1:20). They are totally different modalities. Gods thoughts and ways are as far apart as the heavens and the earth, says Isaiah (Isaiah 55:8-9).

Here is another Biblical statement of how the wrath of God functions, found in Isaiah 57:17. I will spell it out by organizing it according to its chiastic structure, often seen in Hebrew poetry. We can readily decode meaning when we do this:

A. For the iniquity of his covetousness
---B. was I wroth,
------C. and smote him:
------C'. I hid me,
---B'. and was wroth,
A'. and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart.

Notice how the corresponding "C" lines show the "smiting" as the "hiding."

God's destruction is when He lets us have our own way.

Remember the fiery serpents? HOW did God send the fiery serpents?

Numbers 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

And the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died." {ST, April 2, 1894 par. 2}

The Lord had fed them with the bread of heaven, even with angels' food; and yet they murmured against him. By his power he had held in check the wild beasts of the forests, and the reptiles of the wilderness, so that they had not hurt his people; but now he removed his restraining hand, and let the poisonous serpents do as they would have done all along the way had the Lord not restrained them. The real trouble that now came upon them served to bring them to their senses, and to awaken their paralyzed thoughts as to what course to pursue. "Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord, and against thee; pray unto the Lord, that he take away the serpents from us. . . . {ST, April 2, 1894 par. 3}

Note when the "real trouble" came, when God removed the restraint. The hermeneutic is ever the same. Sin is always the problem, not God.

The problem with your view, APL, is that you see it as a "problem" to destroy sin and sinners in the end. God, and the righteous universe, will see it as a "solution," and a righteous act.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.