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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: APL]
#166473
07/01/14 07:34 PM
07/01/14 07:34 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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M: APL, what are the chances you will explain the lake of fire and how sinners will destroys themselves in it?
PS - Are you okay with Jesus giving evil men and evil angels permission to murder innocent women and children?
A: Does the story of Job put God in bad light? Did Jesus give evil angels permission to murder innocent women and children?
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#166477
07/01/14 07:53 PM
07/01/14 07:53 PM
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SDA Active Member 2021
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Is there any reason to doubt Ellen White capitalized "Him" and "He" in the passages posted above? Mike, If Mrs. White did not capitalize the "Him" for those texts, then Satan must have infected the CD, or swayed some one of her editors to do it. And if Satan or one of his agents did this, God allowed it. And if God allowed it, then it must either be true, or God doesn't mind if we are deceived about it. If it's true, then Satan just worked against himself; but if it's false, then God is not faithful to His promise to preserve His word. And if God is not faithful, then ALL is lost. Given the above, either God is the One referred to in the texts above, or Ellen White was not a prophet. And if Ellen White was not a prophet, we will soon find the Bible has problems too. If we reject the Bible, we reject God who gave it. So, it boils down to one final question: Will we accept that God will do what He says He will do (punish the wicked), OR reject God and His Word? Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Daryl]
#166479
07/01/14 08:41 PM
07/01/14 08:41 PM
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As for me and my house we will serve the Lord. I take God at His word. I believe His prophets - including Ellen White. The act of punishment is indeed a strange act. But I trust He is holy, just, and good. The forbearance that God has exercised toward the wicked, emboldens men in transgression; but their punishment will be none the less certain and terrible for being long delayed. "The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act." Isaiah 28:21. To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live." Ezekiel 33:11. The Lord is "merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, . . . forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin." Yet He will "by no means clear the guilty." Exodus 34:6, 7. While He does not delight in vengeance, He will execute judgment upon the transgressors of His law. He is forced to do this, to preserve the inhabitants of the earth from utter depravity and ruin. In order to save some He must cut off those who have become hardened in sin. "The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked." Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. And the very fact of His reluctance to execute justice testifies to the enormity of the sins that call forth His judgments and to the severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor. {PP 628.1}
The Lord does not delight in vengeance, though he executes judgment upon the transgressors of his law. He is forced to do this, to preserve the inhabitants of the earth from utter depravity and ruin. In order to save some, he must cut off those who have become hardened in sin. Says the prophet Isaiah: "The Lord shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work, and bring to pass his act, his strange act." The work of wrath and destruction is indeed a strange, unwelcome work for Him who is infinite in love. {ST, August 24, 1882 par. 15}
Saith the Lord: "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit." "I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. . . . I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:6-8, 16-19. {GC 672.1} "Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2} The idea that Satan and sinners will kill themselves and then cast themselves in the lake of fire is hard to believe.
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#166480
07/01/14 09:13 PM
07/01/14 09:13 PM
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SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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M: APL, what are the chances you will explain the lake of fire and how sinners will destroys themselves in it?
PS - Are you okay with Jesus giving evil men and evil angels permission to murder innocent women and children?
A: Does the story of Job put God in bad light? Did Jesus give evil angels permission to murder innocent women and children? Have you read the book of Job?
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#166481
07/01/14 09:23 PM
07/01/14 09:23 PM
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SDA Active Member 2020
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
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Is there any reason to doubt Ellen White capitalized "Him" and "He" in the passages posted above? Mike, If Mrs. White did not capitalize the "Him" for those texts, then Satan must have infected the CD, or swayed some one of her editors to do it. And if Satan or one of his agents did this, God allowed it. And if God allowed it, then it must either be true, or God doesn't mind if we are deceived about it. If it's true, then Satan just worked against himself; but if it's false, then God is not faithful to His promise to preserve His word. And if God is not faithful, then ALL is lost. Given the above, either God is the One referred to in the texts above, or Ellen White was not a prophet. And if Ellen White was not a prophet, we will soon find the Bible has problems too. If we reject the Bible, we reject God who gave it. So, it boils down to one final question: Will we accept that God will do what He says He will do (punish the wicked), OR reject God and His Word? Blessings, Green Cochoa. Then according to green, EGW is not a prophet. Do note that there are editors! Those that enter text in to publications. There are 9 "hits" on the CD for this phrase: "rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body". Only 6 are relavent: 4 times the "him" is not capitalized. 2 times it is. The KJV is ambiguous. We are free to interpret the verse. So what did EGW say? All should be intelligent in regard to the agency by which the soul is destroyed. [yes - is it God?] It is not because of any decree that God has sent out against man. [it is not a decree by God!] He does not make man spiritually blind. [then who does?] God gives sufficient light and evidence to enable man to distinguish truth from error. [God give light -and in Him is no darkness at all] But He does not force man to receive truth. [love me, or I will kill you - makes no sense] He leaves him free to choose the good or the choose the evil.[choose wisely says Green and MM - for God will destroy you if you choose wrong] If man resists evidence that is sufficient to guide his judgment in the right direction, and chooses evil once, he will do this more readily the second time. [Get that??? It is OUR CHOICES that make the difference] The third time he will still more eagerly withdraw himself from God and choose to stand on the side of Satan. And in this course he will continue until he is confirmed in evil, and believes the lie he has cherished as truth. His resistance has produced its harvest. [destruction of the soul] By his example he leads others to follow the same course of resistance against God. [there is a warning we should heed!] {2SAT 183.4} God destroys no man. All who are destroyed will have destroyed themselves... God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. [the destruction is when? the end, the judgment] Everyone who stifles the admonitions of conscience is sowing the seeds of unbelief, and these will produce a sure harvest. [yes- the destruction of the soul - and it is US that is doing it] By rejecting the first warning from God, Pharaoh of old sowed the seeds of obstinacy, and he reaped obstinacy. God did not compel him to disbelieve. The seed of unbelief which he sowed produced a harvest of its kind. Thus his resistance continued, until he looked upon his devastated land, upon the cold, dead form of his first-born, and the first-born of all in his house and of all the families in his kingdom, until the waters of the sea closed over his horses and his chariots and his men of war. His history is a fearful illustration of the truth of the words that "whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." Galatians 6:7. Did men but realize this, they would be careful what seed they sow. {COL 84.4} God is not the destroyer. And for Green, God is not even "A destroyer". God is the creator and the restorer, if you choose Him.
Last edited by APL; 07/01/14 09:30 PM.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Daryl]
#166482
07/01/14 09:31 PM
07/01/14 09:31 PM
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SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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Did you get this??? His history is a fearful illustration of the truth of the words that "whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." Galatians 6:7. DID MEN BUT REALIZE THIS, THEY WOULD BE CAREFUL WHAT SEED THEY SOW. {COL 84.4}
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#166483
07/01/14 09:36 PM
07/01/14 09:36 PM
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SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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As for me and my house we will serve the Lord. I take God at His word. I believe His prophets - including Ellen White. The act of punishment is indeed a strange act. But I trust He is holy, just, and good. The forbearance that God has exercised toward the wicked, emboldens men in transgression; but their punishment will be none the less certain and terrible for being long delayed. "The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act." Isaiah 28:21. To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live." Ezekiel 33:11. The Lord is "merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, . . . forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin." Yet He will "by no means clear the guilty." Exodus 34:6, 7. While He does not delight in vengeance, He will execute judgment upon the transgressors of His law. He is forced to do this, to preserve the inhabitants of the earth from utter depravity and ruin. In order to save some He must cut off those who have become hardened in sin. "The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked." Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. And the very fact of His reluctance to execute justice testifies to the enormity of the sins that call forth His judgments and to the severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor. {PP 628.1}
The Lord does not delight in vengeance, though he executes judgment upon the transgressors of his law. He is forced to do this, to preserve the inhabitants of the earth from utter depravity and ruin. In order to save some, he must cut off those who have become hardened in sin. Says the prophet Isaiah: "The Lord shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work, and bring to pass his act, his strange act." The work of wrath and destruction is indeed a strange, unwelcome work for Him who is infinite in love. {ST, August 24, 1882 par. 15}
Saith the Lord: "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit." "I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. . . . I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:6-8, 16-19. {GC 672.1} "Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2} The idea that Satan and sinners will kill themselves and then cast themselves in the lake of fire is hard to believe. And God sent fiery serpents to bite the children of Israel. YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND HOW THE BIBLE IS WRITTEN. The Bible means what it means, not what it says. MM - Did God send the fiery serpents? Simple question - YES, or NO????
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: APL]
#166490
07/02/14 01:03 AM
07/02/14 01:03 AM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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M: Did Jesus give evil angels permission to murder innocent women and children?
A: Have you read the book of Job? What do you believe?
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: Mountain Man]
#166491
07/02/14 01:05 AM
07/02/14 01:05 AM
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SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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M: Did Jesus give evil angels permission to murder innocent women and children?
A: Have you read the book of Job? What do you believe? If you have read the book of Job, you would know the answer to your question.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3)
[Re: APL]
#166492
07/02/14 01:09 AM
07/02/14 01:09 AM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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MM - Did God send the fiery serpents? Simple question - YES, or NO???? Yes. Now your turn. Did God send the Flood and Fire? Ellen White wrote: The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. {12MR 208.3}
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