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Re: Revelation 13 [Re: James Peterson] #166516
07/02/14 04:43 PM
07/02/14 04:43 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: James Peterson
The USA will become beholden to an Atheistic power and Christianity will become divided between worldliness and opportunism on the one hand and faithfulness to Jesus on the other. And the latter will be persecuted.

Can you flesh out the details? How does the Bible symbolize the USA? What do you mean by "beholden"? Does the Bible specify the Atheistic Power? How do you define "faithfulness" - Sabbath-keeping?

Re: Revelation 13 [Re: James Peterson] #166550
07/03/14 11:59 AM
07/03/14 11:59 AM
K
kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: James Peterson
Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: James Peterson
The USA will become beholden to an Atheistic power and Christianity will become divided between worldliness and opportunism on the one hand and faithfulness to Jesus on the other. And the latter will be persecuted. (Luke 16:13-15)

I believe you are describing the 6th kingdom of Daniel. It has mostly fallen, and the 7th is starting to set up and come into play. But your statement is hinting at the attitude of the 7th, excepting it will be the persecutor of those who it determines as "wordly", that is, not following what it determines as "Christian". Re 18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. Queen, widow, her. Why depicted of female gender?


Lest the thread wander off into unknown territory, why not tell us who is the beast and what is its mark. Or do you subscribe, like Mountain Man, to Ellen White's theology?

///
I believe I've already indicated that I believe the beast is a religious power.

Why is it associated with a whore, harlot, queen, widow, a "her"?

Re: Revelation 13 [Re: Mountain Man] #166707
07/08/14 02:58 PM
07/08/14 02:58 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: James Peterson
The USA will become beholden to an Atheistic power and Christianity will become divided between worldliness and opportunism on the one hand and faithfulness to Jesus on the other. And the latter will be persecuted.

Can you flesh out the details?

1. How does the Bible symbolize the USA?
2. What do you mean by "beholden"?
3. Does the Bible specify the Atheistic Power?
4. How do you define "faithfulness" - Sabbath-keeping?

  1. Jer. 34:8-22 (in type)
  2. Beholden: "owing thanks or having a duty to someone in return for help or a service."
  3. Today, that would be Israel (a country that denies that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah)
  4. "Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water." (Rev. 14:7) Notice who it says to worship: Jesus Christ, cf. Heb. 1

///

Re: Revelation 13 [Re: James Peterson] #166711
07/08/14 08:06 PM
07/08/14 08:06 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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James, thank you for answering my questions.

Re: Revelation 13 [Re: kland] #166716
07/08/14 09:48 PM
07/08/14 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted By: James Peterson

The USA will become beholden to an Atheistic power and Christianity will become divided between worldliness and opportunism on the one hand and faithfulness to Jesus on the other. And the latter will be persecuted. (Luke 16:13-15)

Lest the thread wander off into unknown territory, why not tell us who is the beast and what is its mark. Or do you subscribe, like Mountain Man, to Ellen White's theology?



Bible students long before Ellen white already found the true meaning. The leopard like beast of Rev. 13 is the papacy when it is combining politics and religion. The sign of his supposed authority above the commandments of God is Sunday.

As early as 1657 people like Thomas Tillam wrote "The Seventh Day Sabbath, sought out and celebrated by saints obtaining victory over the mark of the beast." and "the Christians glorious conquest over the mark of the beast, and recovery of the long slighted seventh day, to its ancient glory."


The beast in Rev. 13 links to the beasts in Daniel 7. The beasts in Daniel 7 are explained in that chapter as four separate and distinct kingdoms. These respectively correspond to the kingdoms of Babylon, (also pictured as the head of gold in Dan.2 and identified as Babylon) Medo-Persia, Greece (also identified in Dan. 8) and Rome.
The fourth beast divides into 10 horns but it's power continues in form of a "little horn".
This power is said to be a powerful voice (:7), a persecutor of the true saints (:21), one who destroys other contenders or powers (:24), one who claims great titles and glory to itself, crushes the true church almost out of existence and changes times and laws (:25). Papacy fulfills this description minutely.

In Revelation 13 the symbols show us that the beast here is the end result of the four beasts in Daniel 7, it has feet like a bear, mouth of a lion, and body of a leopard, and it is a beast. It is the same line of history -- a continuation of Rome after it divided into ten horns and was now under the direction of the "little horn" throughout the 42 months (1260 years), but receives a deadly wound yet revives and works with the New beast with lamb like horns in the last crises.

And the whole world wonders after the beast -- there is no other power in the whole world that has politicians from all over the world honoring him and seeking his advice or blessings. It fits only one identity -- and yes, it is all about WORSHIP.



This last crises is depicted in Revelation as a war concerning God's commandments and true commitment in faith to Christ.

Rev. 12:17 The devil makes war on those who keep God's commandments and have the testimony of Jesus.

Rev. 14:12 clearly tells us what the sign of the saints is (those who do not get the mark of the beast)
The saints with patience keep God's commandments and have the faith of Jesus.

The last message to the world is a call to --
To worship the ONE Who made the heavens and the earth (Rev. 14:7) A clear linguistic link to the fourth commandment and its position as a memorial that GOD created everything in six days -- He spoke and it stood fast -- .

Re: Revelation 13 [Re: dedication] #166727
07/09/14 04:35 AM
07/09/14 04:35 AM
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Originally Posted By: James P.
The USA will become beholden to an Atheistic power and Christianity will become divided between worldliness and opportunism on the one hand and faithfulness to Jesus on the other. And the latter will be persecuted. (Luke 16:13-15)

beholden = "owing thanks or having a duty to someone in return for help or a service."


Right now the USA is divided between worldliness in many forms, Christianity in many forms, as well as other religons. The Christians most of whom have forgotten their protestant background are cozying up to the papacy.

That is how things stand NOW.

Yet, the statement "Beholden" or owing thanks to atheism has truth for the future development.
Thanks to atheism or Islamic anti-christian action it will bring a huge back lash in the favor of a papal led, USA former protestant empowered movement soon.

It will be on the ruins of our society that the beast and its image will appear as "the saviors of the world".

Marian Apparitions (which are spirits) condemn America as the principal agent for attempting to bring in a One World Government with a Luciferian religion and they are CALLING FOR A RETURN TO THE TEN COMMANDMENTS (that is the Catholic version of the ten commandments with a SUNDAY LAW). This is the mechanism designed by Satan to bring in the Sunday Law Crisis to the world. This spiritual movement directed by spirits as "mary", the papacy, and the formerly protestant denominations of America, will be seen as a movement to save the world and anyone in opposition will be seen as opposing the very force which will sweep away the openly anti-Christian movement.

This will make Sabbath keepers look like REBELS against every moral principle in the Bible, because they cannot conform to the demands of the so called great movement of salvation from the clutches of the Luciferian One World Order.

Re: Revelation 13 [Re: James Peterson] #166742
07/10/14 02:34 PM
07/10/14 02:34 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Protestants are willing to work with the Papacy for the good of Christianity but they are not going to give up their protestant autonomy to serve under the headship of the Pope. Satan is working to develop a threefold union of Apostate Protestantism, Catholicism, and Spiritualism - "a new and more exalted system of religious faith". Evil angels, working through spiritualism, is the glue by which Satan will attempt to unite the world under his sin-stained banner. The Pope, like everyone else, will be deceived and submit to Satan's leadership.

Quote:
Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions. While the former lays the foundation of spiritualism, the latter creates a bond of sympathy with Rome. The Protestants of the United States will be foremost in stretching their hands across the gulf to grasp the hand of spiritualism; they will reach over the abyss to clasp hands with the Roman power; and under the influence of this threefold union, this country will follow in the steps of Rome in trampling on the rights of conscience. {GC 588.1}

As spiritualism more closely imitates the nominal Christianity of the day, it has greater power to deceive and ensnare. Satan himself is converted, after the modern order of things. He will appear in the character of an angel of light. Through the agency of spiritualism, miracles will be wrought, the sick will be healed, and many undeniable wonders will be performed. And as the spirits will profess faith in the Bible, and manifest respect for the institutions of the church, their work will be accepted as a manifestation of divine power. {GC 588.2}

The line of distinction between professed Christians and the ungodly is now hardly distinguishable. Church members love what the world loves and are ready to join with them, and Satan determines to unite them in one body and thus strengthen his cause by sweeping all into the ranks of spiritualism. Papists, who boast of miracles as a certain sign of the true church, will be readily deceived by this wonder-working power; and Protestants, having cast away the shield of truth, will also be deluded. Papists, Protestants, and worldlings will alike accept the form of godliness without the power, and they will see in this union a grand movement for the conversion of the world and the ushering in of the long-expected millennium. {GC 588.3}

Through spiritualism, Satan appears as a benefactor of the race, healing the diseases of the people, and professing to present a new and more exalted system of religious faith; but at the same time he works as a destroyer. His temptations are leading multitudes to ruin. Intemperance dethrones reason; sensual indulgence, strife, and bloodshed follow. Satan delights in war, for it excites the worst passions of the soul and then sweeps into eternity its victims steeped in vice and blood. It is his object to incite the nations to war against one another, for he can thus divert the minds of the people from the work of preparation to stand in the day of God. {GC 589.1}

Re: Revelation 13 [Re: James Peterson] #166771
07/12/14 11:34 AM
07/12/14 11:34 AM
His child  Offline
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Posts: 1,673
TN, USA
Originally Posted By: James Peterson
The Beast was the Roman Empire (Dan. 7:23).
The Mark of the Beast was the denarius (Mat. 22:21)

Hope this helps.


Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Originally Posted By: EGW
"Pius VI...This is the pope specified in prophecy, which received the deadly wound." {5MR 318.1}


When was the Roman Empire's wound healed.

As I read Revelation 13:3, it is not identifying the beast in its wounded condition, but in its HEALED state.

Originally Posted By: EGW
"The beast with lamb-like horns commands "all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads; and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name." [Revelation 13:16, 17.] This is the mark concerning which the third angel utters his warning. It is the mark of the first beast, or the papacy, and is therefore to be sought among the distinguishing characteristics of that power. The prophet Daniel declared that the Roman Church, symbolized by the little horn, was to think to change times and laws, [Daniel 7:25.] while Paul styled it the man of sin, [2 Thessalonians 2:3, 4.] who was to exalt himself above God. Only by changing God's law could the papacy exalt itself above God; whoever should understandingly keep the law as thus changed would be giving supreme honor to that power by which the change was made. Such an act of obedience to papal laws would be a mark of allegiance to the pope in the place of God." {4SP 279.1}


The mark of the first beast in its healed state? or the mark of the second beast?

Originally Posted By: EGW
This power, the last that is to wage war against the church and the law of God, was symbolized by a beast with lamblike horns. The beasts preceding it had risen from the sea, but this came up out of the earth, representing the peaceful rise of the nation which is symbolized. The "two horns like a lamb" well represent the character of the United States Government, as expressed in its two fundamental principles, Republicanism and Protestantism."{ST, November 1, 1899 par. 4}


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: Revelation 13 [Re: James Peterson] #166800
07/13/14 04:31 PM
07/13/14 04:31 PM
dedication  Online Content
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The mark of the first beast in its healed state? or the mark of the second beast?

The mark -- is the supposed mark of authority of the first beast to change God's time and law.

The second beast is the one who gives the political power to enforce the "mark" in honor of the first beast.

Quote:
"The world is filled with storm and war and variance. Yet under one head--the papal power--the people will unite to oppose God in the person of His witnesses. This union is cemented by the great apostate.--7T 182 (1902).

" Laws enforcing the observance of Sunday as the Sabbath will bring about a national apostasy from the principles of republicanism upon which the government has been founded. The religion of the papacy will be accepted by the rulers, and the law of God will be made void.--7MR 192 (1906)


The last war concerns worship according to God's Commandments:
Rev. 12:17 The dragon in great fury makes war on the remnant of her seed WHO KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD....
and
Rev. 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints WHO KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD...

The last call of mercy is to
"Worship HIM who made the heavens and the earth and fountains of water... Rev. 14:7 (Compare with Ex. 20:8,11)
The rest are said to be worshipping the beast.

Re: Revelation 13 [Re: James Peterson] #166944
07/19/14 08:14 PM
07/19/14 08:14 PM
Daryl  Offline

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Nova Scotia, Canada
The synod in October at the Vatican should be interesting in relation to this thread and some of the other related threadfs here.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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