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Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? #16688
02/20/06 03:39 AM
02/20/06 03:39 AM
C
Charity  Offline OP
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This is where the scholars may help us. Using the King James, I seem to have a good case because 8:3 says that at the end of this second period the waters were abated. If we take abated in its common meaning, it can't refer to the ark resting because there was much more abating to do before the ground was dry. Verses 11 to 14 describe the final 'abating' and give dates - 1) when Noah took the roof off the ark on the first day of the new year, and 2) when God commanded him and his family to come out. To me it makes sense that the command to come forth from the ark was given the day after the water was finished abating and the ground was dry.

Anyway, let's see what the scholars have to say. You seem to agree though that the 150 days at a minimum describe a calendar with 30 day months.

By the way, I don't see any mention of Noah checking the barley harvest before he took the roof off the ark on day one of the new year. [Smile]

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? #16689
02/20/06 03:57 AM
02/20/06 03:57 AM
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Charity  Offline OP
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I've rechecked my intercalation method for the solar part of the AB cycle. It is a bit different from what I posted above - more simple and more accurate. For the solar part, I’ve found that if we take a series of 112 eight year cycles (896 years) and intercalate 159 weeks adding one week each cycle and two a little more than every third cycle so that the total intercalated weeks come to 159, the calendar is accurate to within one day in 80,000 years given an average solar year of 365.2422 days. Confirming calculations: 364 x 896 + 159*7 = 327,257 days. 365.2422 x 896 = 327,257.0112 days, a difference of .0112 days in 896 years. 896/.0112 = one day in 80,000 years compared with one day in about 3,300 in the Gregorian calendar.

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? #16690
02/20/06 01:56 PM
02/20/06 01:56 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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quote:
By the way, I don't see any mention of Noah checking the barley harvest before he took the roof off the ark on day one of the new year.
Mark,

I'll requote what I said in my post of November 28, 2005:

"This simple calendar, which didn’t require any calculations, served a practical purpose, revealed God’s wisdom, and fulfilled its role with success until the time God designed it to last – the coming of the Messiah. It was a calendar given specifically for the people of Israelit wasn’t used before them, and, since it was tied to types, it shouldn’t be used after them".

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? #16691
02/20/06 02:21 PM
02/20/06 02:21 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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quote:
For the solar part, I’ve found that if we take a series of 112 eight year cycles (896 years) and intercalate 159 weeks adding one week each cycle and two a little more than every third cycle so that the total intercalated weeks come to 159, the calendar is accurate to within one day in 80,000 years given an average solar year of 365.2422 days
Just imagine! Having to keep track of 896 years, intercalating 159 weeks, "adding one week each cycle and two a little more than every third cycle".

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? #16692
02/20/06 06:52 PM
02/20/06 06:52 PM
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Charity  Offline OP
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I know Rosangela it is surprizingly simple. Have you tried to understand the intercalation rules for the modern Jewish calendar?

The truth is that there is no extreemly simple way to create an accurate cycle that uses a number like 365.2422. The Gregorian calendar is about as simple as it gets but at the sacrifice of some accuracy. When you add in a weekly cycle it becomes a little more complicated, but relative to other calendars such as the Jewish, my proposal is pretty simple - add one week every 8 years and add another week about every 24 so that over the long term it averages out to what I suggested.

If you look at the mishmarot cross referencing system at Qumran, you'll see that the Jews in this community did infact expend a lot of effort in tracking time. They were not merely checking the barley harvest.

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? #16693
02/21/06 02:00 PM
02/21/06 02:00 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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quote:
When you add in a weekly cycle it becomes a little more complicated, but relative to other calendars such as the Jewish, my proposal is pretty simple - add one week every 8 years and add another week about every 24 so that over the long term it averages out to what I suggested.
Mark,

The problem is not just the extra week, but the necessity to keep track of 896 years. The modern Jewish calendar follows the 19-year cycle, with its common years and intercalated years:

* c c * c c * c c * c * c c * c c * c

There is a proposal of a reform in the calendar, with 123 intercalations in 334 years (an error of one day in 12,500 years). This is not difficult to do today, when we have computers to make the calculations for us, but would have been very unwieldy in ancient times. Now just imagine keeping track of 896 years for the solar calendar plus I don’t know how many years for the lunar calendar. The poor society which followed these calendars wouldn’t do anything else except taking care of calendars.

Well, I think we have discussed the main points of the subject. Simply put, the Bible doesn't specify any calendar.
The only calendar in the Bible about which we have some hints is the calendar given to the Israelites, which is intuitive. It had lunar months, which is evidenced by the fact that they observed New Moons. The lunar year was adjusted to the solar year by a natural event – the barley harvest, which began during the Passover week. Contrarily to what you think, this was a rather regular and predictable event, which can be evidenced by Christ’s words, “Do you not say, 'There are yet four months, then comes the harvest'?” (John 4:35).
This calendar of Israel, however, was temporary and should last only until Christ's death.
Before this calendar was given to the israelites, we don’t know what kind of calendar was used.
Some infer that the months Noah used were of thirty days, but this doesn’t need to be the case. It is very possible that the period of days during which the waters prevailed is merely given in round numbers, whereas the date of the commencement of the flood (17th day of the 2nd month) and its resting on Ararat (17th day of the 7th month), is given with precision and exactness. Many scholars think that the evidence points to a lunar year, since the Flood began on the 17th day of the 2d month in the 600th year of Noah (Gen. 7:11), and lasted until the 27th day of the 2d month in Noah’s 601st year (ch.8:13,14), making a total of 1 year and 10 days. Since a lunar year is about 10 days shorter than a solar year, it is thought that the Flood therefore lasted one lunar year and 10 days, the length of a solar year. Several commentaries mention this, as Lange, Kalisch, The Pulpit Commentary, and The International Critical Commentary.
Whatever the case, neither can we have a conclusive answer about this nor is this important for us today.

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? #16694
02/22/06 10:58 AM
02/22/06 10:58 AM
C
Charity  Offline OP
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Re the Jewish calendar, it is much more complicated than what you posted above.

Re 150 days in the flood account - if that is a round number, then we would expect other numbers to be round figures too - Noah's age at the flood and the dates. The context indicates these are precise figures just as the rest of the dates and ages in the books of Moses are all precise.

I should have more evidence to present in the next few weeks. Maybe by then we will have a response from someone with knowledge of Hebrew on my 364 day calculation. In the mean time, I've ordered Edwin Theile's 'The Mysterious Numbers of the Hebrew Kings' which is said to be a classic on OT chronology. Theile was a professor at Andrews Univ for several years - probably the best know Adventist bible scholar for many years outside of Adventist circles.

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? #16695
02/23/06 11:59 AM
02/23/06 11:59 AM
Rosangela  Offline
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Brazil
quote:
Re the Jewish calendar, it is much more complicated than what you posted above.
Sure, but for other reasons. Several complicated rules are used for delaying the start of the year in order to avoid that certain holidays occur on or adjacent to the Sabbath.

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? #16696
02/23/06 12:16 PM
02/23/06 12:16 PM
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Charity  Offline OP
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If I remeber right, there are complex rules on the length of the intercalated months. Also I think I remember detailed rules on the length of one or more of the non-intercalated months. It seems like I also remember there being a period of many years in which the 19 year cycle repeats - about 275 isn't it? You are right that some of these relate to aligning the week with the feast days, but they are doing this in the context of keeping the weekly cycle aligned with their understanding of the Law. It is not a simple process for them. But they have been doing this since the dark ages. If such a complex calendar could be maintained in an unenlightened era, the ancients, who were knowlegdable in astronomy and had greater mental vitality than we do today could do at least as well.

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? #16697
02/24/06 10:35 AM
02/24/06 10:35 AM
Rosangela  Offline
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Posts: 6,154
Brazil
A good summary of the rules can be found here:

http://stevemorse.org/jcal/rules.htm

The Jewish life revolves around calendar dates. Besides, the problem with the Jews has always been the many rules of their own creation which are not founded on the Word of God.

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