Thanks for your ideas bro. Mark.

Here are some selective VTH writings on Zech. Chapter 1 to compare with.

"In the vision of Zechariah 1, we note that the "horses" "whom the Lord hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth," have the gift of speech, for "they answered the angel of the Lord...and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth." The obvious import of this symbolism is that these "horses" can talk and that they are serving the Lord in going where He sends them. They therefore can be symbolical only of the Lord's servants, the ministry that is "sent.

Inevitably, then, the symbolism depicts a Movement which goes forth with a message and which, upon finishing its work of going "to and fro through the earth," returns."



Before we go further, does these points make sense so far?

GLL in my view the four horsemen of Zechariah 1:7- 16 has it's parallel in the four horns immediately following in the same chapter. Speaking of the horsemen it says:


It was the horsemen, especially the blood red ones, that brought calamity on Israel, greater than what the Lord intended.

Speaking of the four horns it says:

One more thing before commenting on the sequences of the horses in all three passages. I think the best overall translation of Zechariah 6 is from the ESV. Notice verses 3 and 7 in the ESV below and compare the same verses with the KJV. Whereas the KJV conveys the impression that the fourth chariot is drawn by two different horses, the ESV indicates that the fourth chariot has one kind, dappled, and that the horses of all four chariots are strong. This agrees with the rendering in verse 7 that tells us when the chariots emerge from between the mountains all of them are seen to be strong. They issue from the Divine Providences symbolized by the mountains of brass, and all four are mighty to fulfill His will.

The ESV translation is more reasonable in this case than the KJV because by staying with a single horse type we can better identify what each chariot represents. Inspiration is like science in this regard: the simplest explanation consistent with the facts is the preferred one.

Mark--. "Notice verses 3 and 7 in the ESV below and compare the same verses with the KJV. Whereas the KJV conveys the impression that the fourth chariot is drawn by two different horses, the ESV indicates that the fourth chariot has one kind, dappled, and that the horses of all four chariots are strong."

Yes, that would make the interpretation quite different and skew the intended meaning of the lesson.

Here is the E-Sword version which calls out the words in orig. Hebrew and translates:

Zec 6:3 -- And in the third H7992 chariot H4818 white H3836 horses;H5483 and in the fourth H7243 chariot H4818 grisled H1261 and bay H554 horses.H5483

The words are distinctly different (spotted or grisled-- "Barod" H1261 and then "Red or bay" H554)

Here is a link that may shed more light on Zech. 6:3
[url=BlueLetter Bible ref.]http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H1261&t=KJV[/url]

So I would have to disagree with your assertion the ESV is preferred over KJV for Zech. translations.

To Repeat-- "In the vision of Zechariah 1, we note that the "horses" "whom the Lord hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth," have the gift of speech, for "they answered the angel of the Lord...and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth." The obvious import of this symbolism is that these "horses" can talk and that they are serving the Lord in going where He sends them. They therefore can be symbolical only of the Lord's servants, the ministry that is "sent".

Inevitably, then, the symbolism depicts a Movement which goes forth with a message and which, upon finishing its work of going "to and fro through the earth," returns."

Let's follow this interpretation and see how it unfolds further:

"Without clashing with logic, one cannot suppose that this symbolism is prophetically descriptive of the gospel workers who are foreshadowed in Christ's prophecy that "this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." Matt. 24:14.

For after the horses answered "We have walked to and fro through the earth" -- meaning, "We have finished our work," -- the Lord commands them to "Cry yet;" that is, proclaim again! And this command moreover, shows that the Lord was yet to bestow His mercy upon His people, and yet to finish His work of salvation, for He says: "My cities...shall yet be spread abroad; and the Lord shall yet comfort Zion, and shall yet choose Jerusalem. " Zech. 1:17.

Necessarily, therefore, the "horses" here in view depict a Movement on foot, which is organized to proclaim the gospel throughout the earth. The horses' answer, "We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest," reveals that the movement thought its work finished and probation closed.

In other words, it thought that salvation through the gospel had closed and that the preaching of it could no longer make the earth produce converts.

(The subject of the symbolism being the production of spiritual life, it necessarily calls for the salvation of souls not for the production of vegetal or animal life.) Whereas, in fact, the Lord commissioned them to "cry yet," showing them that they were mistaken.

To determine whether this symbolical prophecy points to God's servants of the past, of the present, or of the future, one must consult church history. Its pages record
that the Millerite Movement is the only one which has gone with a message to every Christian mission in the world (The Great Controversy, p. 368), and thought, mistakenly, that in so doing, the last gospel invitation had been sounded to every living creature under heaven, thereby signalizing the close of human probation.

On the contrary, the gospel invitation for this time, instead of then being finished, had just begun, and instead of the Lord's coming then to earth, He went to His heavenly temple!

The peculiar set of circumstances surrounding the Millerite Movement prior to 1844, certifies that it is the one which is depicted in the symbolism of Zechariah 1.

And it should be remembered that the Lord did not on the one hand attach the warning, "Look out, for these horses are false (mistaken) prophets," or on the other hand rebuke the horses or command them to keep silence, but that instead He commanded them that they cry the more. And the angel of the Lord, in confirmation, declares: "These are they whom the Lord hath sent."

John the Baptist preached that Christ was to establish a literal kingdom at His first advent, and though John was mistaken, the Lord said of him: "There hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist." Matt. 11:11.

And in view of the light now shining from the Scripture, anyone can see that those who are continually crying out "Wolf! wolf!" in derision of the 2300-days doctrine, are, wittingly or unwittingly, working against God by attempting to silence His voice. They are doing the bidding of him who is trying to conceal the truth that the next after the Millerite movement must proclaim the gospel

To Many But Not To All." (to be continued)
(Tract 6, p.62-64)

GLL do you see a parallel between the four horses and the four horns in chapter 1? How does the Shepard's Rod and Victor Houteff view the horns?

And what's VH's view of the four horses of Rev 6?

REV 6:

HORSE, BEAST, ASSIGNMENT

White, Lion, Bow + crown given
Red, Calf, Take peace + sword given
Black, Face of a man, Scales (1qt wheat, 3qt barley for a denarius -OW)
Dapple, Flying Eagle, Death + Hades (kill ¼ of the earth, etc, etc)

I'm looking for a relationship (if it exists) between the heavenly beasts, the color of the horses and the unique assignment of each rider.

Thank you

///

"GLL do you see a parallel between the four horses and the four horns in chapter 1? How does the Shepard's Rod and Victor Houteff view the horns?"

"And what's VH's view of the four horses of Rev 6?"

***************************************

I really like these questions bro, as it tells me you are searching which really is what we are told to do(Rev. 3:18) if we know we need more truth. Will address those questions this evening.Thanks.

Good observation James. So the readers understand, you got the beast descriptions and their order, lion, calf, man and eagle, from Rev. 4:7. Another ingredient is the fact that the horses also correspond to the first four seals of the seven sealed scroll and that the Lamb has just taken the scroll from the hand of the Father. But I'll wait for GLL to post his replies. Looking forward to that GLL.

"And what's VH's view of the four horses of Rev 6?"

Let's review what VTH said about the chariots and horses--

RED HORSES (First Chariot)

"The consecutive order of the chariots indicates a series of gospel events. " In the first chariot were red horses." That the color red stands for bloodshed, the Spirit of Prophecy bears out: "As we were traveling along, we met a company who also were gazing at the glories of the place. I noticed red as a border on their garments; their crowns were brilliant; their robes were pure white. As we greeted them, I asked Jesus who they were. He said they were MARTYRS that had been slain for Him." Early Writings pp. 18,19.

The red border on the garments of this company being symbolic of martyrdom, obviously, then, the red color of the "horses" denotes the martyred leaders of the church before 538 A.D.

In response to Zechariah's question as to who the horses were and where they were going, the angel answered: "The black horses which are therein go forth into the north country; and the white go forth after them; and the grisled go forth toward the south country, And the bay went forth, and sought to go that they might walk to and fro through the earth." Zech. 6:6,7.

"Though the angel's answer discloses the respective directions toward which the black, white, grisled, and bay horses went, It omits to make the slightest mention of the Red Horses, thus riveting the conclusion that the Red Horses were martyred and went nowhere so far as their final destination is concerned. This being clear, our next step, logically, is to identify


BLACK HORSES (Second Chariot)

"And in the second chariot (were) black horses," Universally, the figurative significance of "black" is bondage, So as the martyrdom of the early Christian church was followed by the Dark Ages of religion, from 538 A. D to 1798 A. D., it is evident that the chariot with the black horses represents the church and its leadership during this long prophetic period in ecclesiastical Roman bondage.

This fact is borne out by the angel's explanation of the horses' destination: "The black horses, " he said, " . . .go forth into the north country. " And "the north country" is the Biblical term for ancient Babylon, as is quickly seen from the following Scriptures:

". . .saith the Lord God; . . I will bring. . . Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, . ,from the North." Ezek. 26:7. Again: when the Jews were returning from Babylon to Jerusalem, God spoke through His prophet Zechariah, saying: "Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the North" (Zech 2:6), thus identifying Babylon as the "North Country."

But as we are dealing with the fulfillment of prophecy in the New Testament era, the north country in this connection must be antitypical Babylon---Christianized Rome---where God's people during the New Testament period have gone. This clear-cut truth concerning the second chariot, leads us to the exposition The

THE WHITE HORSES (Third Chariot)

And there were "In the third chariot white horses." Since Black is significant of bondage, then white, being the opposite of black, must denote Liberty. Accordingly, the white horses with their chariot must be symbolical of the church following her 1260 year period of Roman bondage.

Said the angel to Zechariah: "The white go forth after" the Black Horses, to the north country. The white chariot therefore represent a free church, carrying a heaven-born message to the north country shortly after 1798 A. D., in the time of religious liberty, after Protestantism had broken away from Papal Rome. The only such message found on record is that of the Millerite Movement, of which we read:

"To William Miller and his co-laborers it was given to preach the warning in America. This country became the center of the great advent movement....The writings of Miller and his associates were carried to distant lands. Wherever missionaries had penetrated in all the world, were sent the glad tidings of Christ's speedy return." Great Controversy p. 368.

But though "the White Horses" went to the "north country, " the Millerites, or "First Advent Movement," was not in response to the call, "come out of her My people." This is made clear by Miller's own words: "In all my labors....I never had the desire or thought to establish any separate interest from the existing denominations, or to benefit one at the expense of another. I thought to benefit all." Great Controversy p. 375.

The concluding revelation is: "Behold, these that go toward the north country have quieted My Spirit in the north country." Zech. 6:8. After the warning message by the Millerite movement had been rejected by the churches, in the fulfillment of the words, "have quieted My Spirit in the north country, "God withdrew His Spirit from them. In evidence of this, "the second Angel" announced: "Babylon is fallen." Rev.14:8.

Babylon at this time experienced only a moral fall. She does not completely fall until the time of the Loud Cry. See Great Controversy pp. 389-390.

The foregoing chain of facts surrounding the first three symbolical "chariots", shows that the series of gospel events which they comprehend terminated with the Millerite movement, in 1844 A.D., And the additional fact that the "white" color of the "horses" also denotes purity, show that the "third chariot" is symbolical of the church which of all the seven churches is the only one that is white, without condemnation---the Philadelphia church (Rev. 3: 7).

The Millerite, or "First Advent Movement," being the only one that never cast out any of its brethren, is consequently the only church which can be represented by the white chariot, and the only one worthy of the name "Philadelphia"---"brotherly love."

Ever true to God, it closed its brief but spotless career in 1844, its appointed destination. Having lived its entire life under the personal supervision of its founder, it was never new-modeled. Thus being without condemnation, as perfectly illustrated by the third "chariot" and its "white horses,"..

GRISLED AND BAY HORSES (Fourth Chariot)

Grisled and The Bay Horses---Double Leadership.

And in the "fourth chariot" were "grisled and bay horses." The anomalous part of this symbolical prophecy is manifestly, that the fourth chariot, unlike the other three, has a double span of horses.

Just as the colors of the preceding horses are significant so the colors of this double team on this last chariot are also significant.

The marginal reference in your Bible will tell you that the Bay horses are a strong team and indeed they must be as Zechariah tells us that they are the team that eventually wins out in their determination to go to and fro through the earth, Zech. 6:6,7.

The color "Bay" is a definite hue or color, easy to be defined, a very common color. As the Bible marginal reference has already told us that the "Bay" horses are a strong team, then we will proceed on to find the significance of the "grisled" colored horses.

A "grisled" color is not a definite hue or color It is an undefined color. In this setting the word "grisled could be synonymous with the word "Laodicea", "neither cold nor hot." Ministry and laity alike are warned that if we continue to remain in a "lukewarm" (grisled) condition that we will be spewed out. "Because you are lukewarm, I must spew you out of My mouth." 7 Bible Commentary p. 963, E. G. White.

The Spirit of Prophecy forewarned us years ago that two parties would be developed in our church. "A new life is coming from heaven and taking possession of all God's people. But divisions will come in the church. Two parties will be developed. The wheat and tares grow up together for the harvest." 2 Selected Messages p. 114.

"While the Lord brings into the church those who are truly converted, Satan at the same time brings persons who are not converted into its fellowship. While Christ is sowing the good seed, Satan is sowing the tares. There are two opposing influences continually exerted on the members of the church. One influence is working for the purification of the church, and the other for the corrupting of the people of God." Testimonies to Ministers p. 46.

Can we not see clearly the Two Classes of people today in our church as depicted by the grisled and bay team?

In speaking of the ministry (horses), the servant of the Lord counseled us years ago that some of the ministry as well as the laity need to be converted.

"Some ministers, as well as people, need converting. They need to be torn to pieces and made over new. Their work among the churches is worse than lost, and in their present weak, tottering condition, it would be more pleasing to God for them to cease their efforts to help others, and labor with their hands until they are converted. Then they could strengthen their brethren." Testimonies, Vol. 1 p. 37.

The Paradox

Most arresting about the whole symbolism is the paradoxical fact that the grisled went "toward the south country, and the bay went forth, and ...walked to and fro through the earth"! Zech. 6:6,7. The grisled go one way, and the bay, another way, and yet both are pulling the same chariot.

Thus we can see that the "south country" or Egypt, the direction into which the "grisled" team is headed is symbolical of the world. Just as ancient Israel while wandering in the wilderness, wanted to go back to Egypt, so modern Israel is walking in her foot steps today. "The professed followers of Christ are no longer a separate and peculiar people....Daily the church is being converted to the world." Christ's Object Lessons pp. 315,316.

Grisled Team Cut Off

Seeing that the chariot is drawn by both teams, each pulling in a different direction from the other, obviously both cannot win out without breaking it in two, thus leaving it ruined and useless, One pair or the other, therefore, must be cut out of the traces.

And the fact that the bay (the "strong horses"-verse 3, margin) are the ones who eventually will be enabled to "walk to and fro through the earth" while the grisled have attempted to take the chariot toward the south country (Egypt, the world), shows that the bay team during the Loud Cry, (the period of the second brass mountain) are to possess the chariot and to preach "this gospel of the kingdom...in all the-world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." Matt. 24:14.

What Happens to the Grisled Team?

Since the Spirit of Prophecy tells us that "Only those who have withstood temptation in the strength of the Mighty One will be permitted to act a part in proclaiming it, the Third angel's message when it shall have swelled into the Loud Cry" (R&H Nov. 19, 1908), the question naturally arises, What Happens to the Grisled Team, to those who do not overcome temptation in the strength of the Mighty One?

We found in our studies that when the Judgment for the living commences or just before the Loud Cry begins to be proclaimed that the Lord Himself commissions the five angels with slaughter weapons to go through the city (church) and slay all those who do not have the seal of God in their foreheads, men, women and little children perish together. See: Testimonies, Vol. 5 p. 211.

In speaking of those who have ministered to others, the Spirit of Prophecy says: "It is with reluctance that the Lord withdraws His presence from those who have been blessed with great light and who have felt the power of the word in ministering to others. They were once His faithful servants, favored with His presence and guidance; but they departed from Him and led others into error, and therefore are brought under the divine displeasure." Testimonies, Vol. 5 p. 212.

Thus we can clearly see that the Lord Himself will remove the grisled team .

"Angels keep a faithful record of every man's work, and as judgment passes upon the house of God, the sentence of each is recorded by his name, and the angel is commissioned to spare not the unfaithful servants, but to cut them down at the time of slaughter." Testimonies, Vol. 1 p. 198.

"When trees without fruit are cut down as cumberers of the ground, when multitudes of false brethren are distinguished from the true, then the hidden ones will be revealed to view, and with hosannas range under the banner of Christ. Those who have been timid and self-distrustful will declare themselves openly for Christ and His truth. The most weak and hesitating in the church will be as David--willing to do and dare." Testimonies, Vol. 5 p. 81.

The fulfillment of this prophecy will bring into being the Second Brass Mountain, God's purified remnant church.

The hidden ones are brought to view when God purifies His church. They will be the first fruits of the final harvest, the 144,000 (the bay team).

(will address the other question as soon as time allows)