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Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character?
[Re: Rosangela]
#167654
08/22/14 10:40 PM
08/22/14 10:40 PM
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Mike, you've posted tons of passages, but did not answer the questions.
1) EGW says that the truth and the Spirit of God REVEALED to Paul the defects in his character. To reveal means to make known or to show, and it implies there was no previous knowledge, on the part of the person, of what is revealed. What does she mean by that?
2) When they were revealed to him, he put away his wrong and cleansed himself from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit. Do these words apply to Christ or not? If these words do not apply to Christ, does this mean they are equivalent to renouncing sinful tendencies the person had been acting out? Does this mean Paul was acting out his sinful tendencies?
Again, dictionary definitions of "wrong":
n. 1.
a. An unjust or injurious act.
b. Something contrary to ethics or morality.
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Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character?
[Re: Rosangela]
#167663
08/23/14 01:32 AM
08/23/14 01:32 AM
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I posted tons of passages because the one you posted is not sufficient to ascertain what Ellen White believed about Paul's conversion and the phrase "I die daily". Taken as a whole, it is clear to me what she believed.
1) Paul saw his defective traits of character in light of the law and the love of Jesus. He died to self. He rose again a new man in Christ. He grew in grace and matured in the fruits of the Spirit as he walked in the Spirit and mind of the new man.
2) Jesus did not cultivate the sinful traits and tendencies He inherited. He never cultivated defective traits of character. Paul, on the other hand, cultivated the sinful traits he inherited. He crucified them when he experienced conversion. He may have acted them out, from time to time, after his conversion. But Jesus empowered him to subdue, control, reign them in while he was walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man. He was not ignorant of them.
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Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character?
[Re: Rosangela]
#167675
08/23/14 02:48 PM
08/23/14 02:48 PM
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Mike,
In a previous post you said Paul did not act out his sinful tendencies. Now you are saying that he did act them out and that he was not ignorant of them.
What does REVEALED mean?
Sorry, but I don't feel you are dealing honestly with this passage. You twist what is written in order to make it harmonize with your view.
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Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character?
[Re: Rosangela]
#167678
08/23/14 04:35 PM
08/23/14 04:35 PM
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Before his conversion, Paul acted out his cultivated sinful traits of character without realizing they misrepresented the law and love of God. When he encountered Jesus, his view of the law and love of God changed radically. Jesus revealed to him his cultivated sinful traits of character in a new light. He saw himself as a grievous sinner - the chief of sinners. He underwent the process of conversion and died to sin, self, and Satan. He was reborn dead to sin and awake to Christ and His righteousness. While abiding in Jesus, he did not act out his previously cultivated sinful traits of character. He subdued, controlled, reigned them in. He matured daily in the fruits of the Spirit.
Jesus did not wait to reveal certain cultivated sinful traits of character until a better time. Paul may have neglected Jesus from time to time and accordingly acted out his cultivated sinful traits of character. But repentance restored him to the mind of the new man. Jesus also worked to reveal to Paul, when upcoming circumstances required it, dormant, unknown, uncultivated hereditary sinful traits of character in way that enabled him to recognize and resist them successfully the first time.
Possessing dormant, unknown, undiscovered, uncultivated hereditary sinful traits of character does not count as a sin. They are not known, not cherished, not acted out and do not, therefore, result in character. They will not count against them in judgment.
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Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character?
[Re: Rosangela]
#167688
08/23/14 10:41 PM
08/23/14 10:41 PM
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Jesus did not wait to reveal certain cultivated sinful traits of character until a better time. That's the crux of the problem. 1) If Jesus did not wait to reveal, why does Ellen White use the word REVEAL? 2) EGW says that, as the truth and the Spirit of God revealed to Paul the defects in his character, he put away his wrong, which means that she is not referring to "uncultivated hereditary sinful traits of character," for these couldn't be classified as wrongs. The Holy Spirit REVEALED to Paul his WRONGS, that is, his "cultivated sinful traits of character."
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Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character?
[Re: Rosangela]
#167692
08/24/14 01:28 AM
08/24/14 01:28 AM
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Above I wrote - "Jesus revealed to him his cultivated sinful traits of character in a new light." Jesus revealed all of them within a short period of time. Afterward Paul experienced conversion in God's appointed way. Jesus did not withhold revealing certain cultivated sinful traits of character. One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}
The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices, they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again. {RH, April 12, 1892 par. 9}
The minds of many are clouded with unbelief because those who unite with the church as the chosen of God do not reveal the virtues that are the fruits of the Spirit. Joining the church is not a sure evidence that a man has joined himself to Christ. The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ. {12MR 51.1} The idea that Jesus withholds revealing certain cultivated sinful traits of character until sometime after people experience conversion in God's appointed way is unbiblical. It also clashes with the passages posted above.
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Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character?
[Re: Rosangela]
#167693
08/24/14 01:38 AM
08/24/14 01:38 AM
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Does the converted Christian have unknown defective traits of character?
Yes. They are dormant, unknown, undiscovered, uncultivated. As such, they are benign. To count as sin, people must become aware of them, cherish them, act them out in thought, word, and deed. They must become cultivated traits of character to count against them in judgment. Uncultivated, uncondemned.
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Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character?
[Re: Rosangela]
#167698
08/24/14 01:01 PM
08/24/14 01:01 PM
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Above I wrote - "Jesus revealed to him his cultivated sinful traits of character in a new light." This does not make any sense. That which the Holy Spirit has already revealed to you, and you have already subdued and overcome doesn't need to be revealed again in a new light. He will reveal in a new light that which you haven't yet overcome. That's what happened in relation to my problem with soap operas, for instance. Of course I knew that watching them was a sin, and of course I tried not to do it, but I failed many times - until the moment the Holy Spirit revealed that sin to me in a new light, and showed me that I hadn't been able to overcome that sin entirely because I still loved soap operas. So, what I had to overcome was not, in fact, that sin, but the *love* for that sin that still existed in my heart. Of course there is no such thing as an unknown defective trait of character that you become aware of without acting it out - at least in thought. This is completely unrealistic and does not make any sense.
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Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character?
[Re: Rosangela]
#167702
08/24/14 04:03 PM
08/24/14 04:03 PM
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So, it sounds like we agree hereditary, dormant, unknown, uncultivated, defective sinful traits of character do not count as sin, and will not count against people in judgment.
Before his conversion Paul did not view his cultivated traits of character as sinful. But when the Holy Spirit revealed them to Paul in a new light he saw them, for first time, as Jesus saw them - sinful. He confessed them and then crucified them. He experienced conversion in God's appointed way. He died to sin, self, and Satan. He rose again a new man in Christ - dead to sin, free from sin, awake to righteousness, abiding in Jesus, partaking of the divine nature, maturing daily in the fruits of the Spirit.
Jesus had no need to reveal to Paul his cultivated sinful traits of character in a new light after he experienced conversion in God's appointed way. But Paul, like everyone else, possessed dormant, unknown, uncultivated, defective traits of character. Jesus would, from time to time, reveal certain of them to Paul in advance of upcoming circumstances that would bring Paul face to face with them for the first time. By so doing, Jesus worked to prepare Paul to successfully recognize and resist them.
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Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character?
[Re: Rosangela]
#167703
08/24/14 04:08 PM
08/24/14 04:08 PM
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You did not address the quotes I posted above. Those quotes, and many others like them, make it clear Ellen White believed people crucify all of their cultivated sinful traits of character when they experience conversion in God's appointed way.
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