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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16812
01/10/06 07:24 PM
01/10/06 07:24 PM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Dave, if we follow the counsel of the SOP, that is, if we thoroughly prepare people for baptism, what do they lack? What makes them imperfect? What makes them disobedient? What more is required before they are perfectly obedient?
In what way was Paul imperfect? In what way was he disobedient? What was lacking in his life? Did he ever reach the “goal” or the “mark” he spoke about? If you believe he did reach the goal, in what way was he different before and after he reached the goal?
Dave, help me understand the following insights:
“When a soul is truly converted, old habits and natural evil besetments are done away in Christ Jesus and all things become new.” (TMK 247) “There is not a stain in the character because God is enthroned in the heart and Christ does not war against Christ.” (1 S&T 246) “Transformation of heart means an entire change of the entire man.” (TDG 48)
According to these quotes, are we born again perfect or imperfect? By perfect I don’t mean mature; rather, I mean complete.
“All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes.” (COL 330) “When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing.” (DA 676)
According to these quotes, what are we missing or lacking the moment we are born again?
“At every stage of development our life may be perfect; yet if God’s purpose for us is fulfilled, there will also be continual advancement.” (COL 65) “Even the most perfect Christian may increase continually in the knowledge and love of God.” (1T 340) “‘The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.’ Through obedience comes sanctification of body, soul, and spirit. This sanctification is a progressive work, and an advance from one stage of perfection to another.” (ML 250)
According to these quotes, in what way are we different as we advance from one stage of perfection to another? Do we become less and less sinful, or do we become more and more mature in the fruits of Spirit?
“It is your work to advance toward perfection, making constant improvement, until at last you are pronounced worthy to receive immortal life. And even then the work of progression will not cease, but will continue throughout eternity.” (HP 186)
According to this quote, in what way will we progress throughout eternity, in what way will we be different?
“Those only who through faith in Christ obey all of God’s commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. They testify to their love of Christ by obeying all His precepts.” (6BC 1118)
According to this quote, do we start off [at rebirth] sinless, or do we end up sinless? If we end up sinless, how long does it take? And, why don’t we start off sinless?
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16813
01/10/06 08:17 PM
01/10/06 08:17 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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I read these quotes and passages on perfection in the bible, then I look at myself and I wonder, what qualifies me to hang around all those holy people spoken of? Finding no answere in myself, I wonder, where should I go to find comfort? To: quote:
Matthew 11:28
"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.
or on a down day quote:
27. The Millennium and the End of Sin:
The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever.
/Thomas
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16814
01/10/06 08:45 PM
01/10/06 08:45 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,009
Ohio
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Paul liked to argue and Peter deigned Jesus; does that sound like perfection to you? Indeed, if we are to be perfect at baptism, why does Ellen White say that perfection should be reached for throughout a lifetime? Does that mean one cannot be baptized until they are about to die? When all becomes new, and one is transformed, it does not mean that one is perfect. It means that one has a desire and will to be perfect and will continue to run the race. One of the quotes you provided shows this even more quote:
Even the most perfect Christian may increase continually in the knowledge and love of God. (1T 340)
If we were talking about complete perfection, there would be nothing more to learn, but as there is more to learn, there is no absolute perfection.
The real danger comes when one thinks they have reached perfection. That is the time for the devil to strike. When one ceases to learn and grow, there is no further use for Christ. We then start to rely on our strength and our perfection. Neither of these things will help to save one.
Even if one may be perfect, to claim perfection is to exalt self, and that leads back to the sin of pride. So, the way I see it, no one can claim perfection.
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16815
01/10/06 08:48 PM
01/10/06 08:48 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,009
Ohio
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What are we to do? Preach the "Good News," unveil the truth, and accept people into our fellowship.
There are few, if any, people that will listen to you and me, but there are quite a few more that will listen to the Holy Spirit through us and in their lives.
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16816
01/11/06 02:16 AM
01/11/06 02:16 AM
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Posting New Member
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 25
Out West
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quote:
Originally posted by Mountain Man:
[QB]
The remnant church has been commissioned... to baptize them into the SDA doctrine (all 28 of them)...
Very strange thing mister Mountain friend, I have looked at the scriptures and the SOP but I have not found this statement anywhere. Could you search the testimony of Jesus and find this one for me, I would appreciate it.
![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif)
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16817
01/11/06 04:36 PM
01/11/06 04:36 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,009
Ohio
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You won't find it because there were not 28 fundamental beliefs during the life of Ellen White or anyone in the Bible. In fact, there were only 27 from the 1980's until this year.
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16818
01/11/06 05:34 PM
01/11/06 05:34 PM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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The 28 fundamental beliefs of the remnant church, the SDA church, are a summary of "all things whatsoever I have commanded you" (Matthew 28:20). It is the condition and criteria of baptism and membership.
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16819
01/11/06 05:47 PM
01/11/06 05:47 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,009
Ohio
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Well, to be technical, there are only 13 criterias to baptism. - I believe in God the Father, in His Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Spirit.
- I accept the death of Jesus Christ on Calvary as the atoning sacrifice for my sins, and believe that through faith in His shed blood I am saved from sin and its penalty.
- I renounce the world and its sinful ways, and have accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Savior, and believe that God, for Christ's sake, has forgiven my sins and given me a new heart.
- I accept by faith the righteousness of Christ, recognizing Him as my Intercessor in the heavenly sanctuary, and claim His promise to strengthen me by His indwelling Sprit, so that I may receive power to do His will.
- I believe that the Bible is God's inspired Word, and that it constitutes the only rule of faith and practice for the Christian.
- I accept the Ten Commandments as still binding upon Christians; and it is my purpose by the power of the indwelling Christ, to keep this law, including the fourth commandment, which requires the observance of the seventh day of the week as the Sabbath of the Lord.
- I look forward to the soon coming of Jesus as the blessed hope in my heart, and I am determined to be ready to meet the Lord, and to do all in my power to witness to His loving salvation, and by life and word to help others to be ready for His glorious appearing.
- I accept the Biblical teaching of spiritual gifts, and believe that the gift of prophecy is one of the identifying marks of the remnant church.
- I believe in church organization, and it is my purpose to support the church by my tithes and offerings, and by my personal effort and influence.
- I believe that my body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, and I will honor God by caring for it, avoiding the use of that which is harmful, abstaining from all unclean foods, from the use, manufacture, or sale of alcoholic beverages, the use, manufacture, or sale of tobacco in any of its forms for human consumption, and from the misuse of or trafficking in, narcotics or other drugs.
- I know and understand the fundamental Bible principles as taught by the Seventh-day Adventist Church. It is my purpose, by the grace of God, to order my life in harmony with these principles.
- I accept the New Testament teaching of baptism by immersion, and desire to be so baptized as a public expression of faith in Christ and His forgiveness of my sins.
- I accept that the Seventh-day Church is the remnant church of Bible prophecy, and that people of every nation, race, and language are invited and accepted into its fellowship. I desire to be a member in this local congregation of the world church.
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16820
01/11/06 05:50 PM
01/11/06 05:50 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,009
Ohio
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quote:
Originally posted by Mountain Man:
The 28 fundamental beliefs of the remnant church, the SDA church, are a summary of "all things whatsoever I have commanded you" (Matthew 28:20).
Does that mean we were not teaching "all things" Jesus commanded untill this year (with the new (28th) fundamental belief)?
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16821
01/11/06 06:29 PM
01/11/06 06:29 PM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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quote:
Dave, if we follow the counsel of the SOP, that is, if we thoroughly prepare people for baptism, what do they lack? What makes them imperfect? What makes them disobedient? What more is required before they are perfectly obedient?
Dave’s Answer:
MM’s Answer: They lack nothing. So long as they are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man nothing makes them imperfect, nothing makes them disobedient, and nothing more is required.
quote:
In what way was Paul imperfect? In what way was he disobedient? What was lacking in his life? Did he ever reach the “goal” or the “mark” he spoke about? If you believe he did reach the goal, in what way was he different before and after he reached the goal?
Dave’s Answer: Paul liked to argue and Peter deigned Jesus; does that sound like perfection to you?
MM’s Answer: Obviously, Paul sinned before his rebirth. But, there isn’t any evidence he sinned after his conversion and baptism. While Paul was walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man he was not imperfect or disobedient. The goal he was hoping to reach was to “attain unto the resurrection of the dead.” That is, he was striving to be faithful until the day he died. Yes, he was successful.
“I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.” (2 Timothy 4:7, 8)
quote:
Dave, help me understand the following insights:
“When a soul is truly converted, old habits and natural evil besetments are done away in Christ Jesus and all things become new.” (TMK 247) “There is not a stain in the character because God is enthroned in the heart and Christ does not war against Christ.” (1 S&T 246) “Transformation of heart means an entire change of the entire man.” (TDG 48)
According to these quotes, are we born again perfect or imperfect? By perfect I don’t mean mature; rather, I mean complete.
Dave’s Answer: Indeed, if we are to be perfect at baptism, why does Ellen White say that perfection should be reached for throughout a lifetime? Does that mean one cannot be baptized until they are about to die?
MM’s Answer: Sister White clearly says we are born again perfect, that is, complete. Nothing is missing or lacking when we are born again. We are not, however, born again mature. We begin at rebirth where Jesus began at birth. We start off with a clean slate. We begin the lifelong (including eternal life) process of maturing in the fruits of the Spirit, of developing the sinless traits of character we received the moment we were born again.
quote:
“All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes.” (COL 330) “When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing.” (DA 676)
According to these quotes, what are we missing or lacking the moment we are born again?
Dave’s Answer: When all becomes new, and one is transformed, it does not mean that one is perfect. It means that one has a desire and will to be perfect and will continue to run the race.
MM’s Answer: We are born again with all the righteous fruits and attributes of God’s character. Not one trait is missing. We do not gradually accumulate them after we are born again. Again, we are not born again mature. Like Jesus, who grew in grace and matured in the fruits of the Spirit, so too, born again believers will, so long as they are abiding in Jesus, grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit.
quote:
“At every stage of development our life may be perfect; yet if God’s purpose for us is fulfilled, there will also be continual advancement.” (COL 65) “Even the most perfect Christian may increase continually in the knowledge and love of God.” (1T 340) “‘The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.’ Through obedience comes sanctification of body, soul, and spirit. This sanctification is a progressive work, and an advance from one stage of perfection to another.” (ML 250)
According to these quotes, in what way are we different as we advance from one stage of perfection to another? Do we become less and less sinful, or do we become more and more mature in the fruits of Spirit?
Dave’s Answer: If we were talking about complete perfection, there would be nothing more to learn, but as there is more to learn, there is no absolute perfection.
MM’s Answer: Like Jesus, we begin perfect (complete) and, so long as we are abiding in Jesus, we become perfect (mature). We “advance from one stage of perfection to another.” We become more and more like Jesus, not less and less like Satan. While we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man we do not, and cannot, commit a known sin. See 1 John 3:1-10.
The promises of perfection do not imply that born again believers, who are abiding in Jesus, are incapable of committing a known sin. Not at all. To sin, however, we must first disconnect from Jesus, which automatically places us back in the resurrected mind of our old man, and then all we can do is sin. The gift of repentance empowers us to confess and forsake our sin, and it gives God the legal right to pardon us and to restore us to mind of the new man. The old man mind is crucified and buried.
quote:
“It is your work to advance toward perfection, making constant improvement, until at last you are pronounced worthy to receive immortal life. And even then the work of progression will not cease, but will continue throughout eternity.” (HP 186)
According to this quote, in what way will we progress throughout eternity, in what way will we be different?
Dave’s Answer:
MM’s Answer: The progress we make throughout eternity is no different than the progress we make here on earth. We will continue to mature in the fruits of the Spirit throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity. Eternity isn’t long enough to exhaust our potential to become more and more mature. The difference we experience as we grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit, beginning at rebirth and continuing throughout eternity, is measured in depth and degree of righteousness, not in terms of becoming less and less sinful.
quote:
“Those only who through faith in Christ obey all of God’s commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. They testify to their love of Christ by obeying all His precepts.” (6BC 1118)
According to this quote, do we start off [at rebirth] sinless, or do we end up sinless? If we end up sinless, how long does it take? And, why don’t we start off sinless?
Dave’s Answer:
MM’s Answer: We start off sinless or complete. We do not, however, start off mature. As stated repeatedly above, we, like Jesus, begin perfect (complete), and we become perfect (mature) as we grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit. But again, eternity isn’t long enough to exhaust our potential to become more and more mature.
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