There seems to be a large contradiction here. If we are to be perfect at baptism, how is it that Peter was baptized before he was converted?

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Originally posted by Mountain Man:

Peter denied Jesus before his conversion.

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Simon Peter answered, "Lord, then wash not only my feet, but wash my hands and my head, too!" Jesus said, "After a person has had a bath, his whole body is clean. He needs only to wash his feet. And you men are clean, but not all of you."
John 13:9 - 10 NCV

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How can someone be perfect but not converted?

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Originally posted by Mountain Man:

Everything changed when Jesus was crucified and resurrected. Judas killed himself and the rest were converted.

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Jesus said that Peter was baptized before He was on the cross, so he was not converted at that time!

Correct! Peter was baptized before he completed the process of conversion, before he was born again. Which is true of many people nowadays.

DA 172
The wind is heard among the branches of the trees, rustling the leaves and flowers; yet it is invisible, and no man knows whence it comes or whither it goes. So with the work of the Holy Spirit upon the heart. It can no more be explained than can the movements of the wind. A person may not be able to tell the exact time or place, or to trace all the circumstances in the process of conversion; but this does not prove him to be unconverted. By an agency as unseen as the wind, Christ is constantly working upon the heart. Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through meditating upon Him, through reading the Scriptures, or through hearing the word from the living preacher. Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process. {DA 172.3}

6BC 1075
The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ (MS 148, 1897). {6BC 1075.7}

6BC 1101
The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again (RH April 12, 1892). {6BC 1101.1}

Obviously, according to the passages above, we do not gradually outgrow our sinful ways after we complete the process of conversion, after we are born again. Instead, it happens before we are born again, during the process of conversion. We confess our sinfulness during the process of conversion, and the moment we are born again we are perfect, complete, in Christ. Then we begin the lifelong process of maturing in the fruits of the Spirit. We are born again perfect (complete), we are not, however, born again mature.

So Christ did things in the wrong order? I mean that he should not have let His followers be baptized or, even worse, baptize others?

If baptism, the rebirth, is the completion of the process (making one perfect), then it must have been out of order. How could all but one of His followers be clean if they were not converted?

Dave, that the completion of Peter's conversion was future is clear from Jesus' words:

Luke
22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired [to have] you, that he may sift [you] as wheat:
22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
22:33 And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.

AA 515
It was after Peter had been led to self-renunciation and entire reliance upon divine power, that he received his call to act as an undershepherd. Christ had said to Peter, before his denial of Him, "When thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." Luke 22:32. These words were significant of the wide and effectual work which this apostle was to do in the future for those who should come to the faith. For this work, Peter's own experience of sin and suffering and repentance had prepared him. Not until he had learned his weakness, could he know the believer's need of dependence on Christ. Amid the storm of temptation he had come to understand that man can walk safely only as in utter self-distrust he relies upon the Saviour. {AA 515.1}

DA 812
Peter was naturally forward and impulsive, and Satan had taken advantage of these characteristics to overthrow him. Just before the fall of Peter, Jesus had said to him, "Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: but I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." Luke 22:31, 32. That time had now come, and the transformation in Peter was evident. The close, testing questions of the Lord had not called out one forward, self-sufficient reply; and because of his humiliation and repentance, Peter was better prepared than ever before to act as shepherd to the flock. {DA 812.3}

DA 812, 815
Before his fall, Peter was always speaking unadvisedly, from the impulse of the moment. He was always ready to correct others, and to express his mind, before he had a clear comprehension of himself or of what he had to say. But the converted Peter was very different. He retained his former fervor, but the grace of Christ regulated his zeal. He was no longer impetuous, self-confident, and self-exalted, but calm, self-possessed, and teachable. He could then feed the lambs as well as the sheep of Christ's flock. {DA 812.5}

I know and understand the fundamental Bible principles as taught by the Seventh-day Adventist Church. It is my purpose, by the grace of God, to order my life in harmony with these principles.

Hey, you guys, lets get to the nitty gritty. At least around here and even among Hispanic now, pastors don't want to mention standards. Wearing jewelry is a non-issue around here because it isn't taught any more. Like that issue that are others that aren's so obvious like proper Sabbath observance. So, now we have a very divided church.

Perfect before baptism? That's cute! Mountain Man will lead you on a pretty rugged path if you let him!

As far as the Bible goes, there is no different between perfect and mature. It's the same word. Paul talks about being perfect in Him, but also as going on to perfection, which he says he had not yet reached. The KJV may make a difference, but in Greek mature and perfect are translated from the same Greek word.

Solomon the wise said it twice, once in 1 Kings 8:46
"If they sin against thee (for there is no man that sinneth not)
50 "and forgive thy people that have sinned against thee"

"Let your heart therefore be perfect. . . to keep his commandments . .

Ecc. 7:20, "For there is not a just man upon the earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not."

Who is currently living that never sins? this is not meant as an excuse to sin, but a reality of even the most dedicated Christians.

Paul says, "For all have sinned (present perfect tense) and fall short (present tense)." Rom 3:23.

Romans 3:10 "There is none righteous, no not one."

"ALl our righteousness is as filthy rags." Is.64:6.

Zech 3 shows us that the way to perfection is through God taking away our sins.

I believe it is in Steps to Christ where EGW says, "THe closer we come to Christ, the less we will see in ourselves . . ."

What's the other one, something like, many times we will have to draw near the cross in search of forgiveness.

You know these quotes better than I do, which is why I was unable to quote them.

Here one is,

"We shall often have to bow down and weep at the feet of Jesus because of our shortcomings and mistakes,"

and the other,

"The closer you come to Jesus, the more faulty you will appear in your own eyes, for your vision will be clearer, and your imperfections will be seen in broad and distinct contrast to His PERFECT nature. " p. 64

"No deep-seated love for Jesus can dwell in the heart that does not realize its own sinfulness."

"THe less we see to esteem in ourselves, the more we shall see to esteem in the infinite purity and loveliness of our saviour. A view of our sinfulness drives us to Him who can pardon; "

I'm sure Paul was no different. The Bible doesn't record all the sins of the disciples, but they are men of like passions as we are.

"yet we have a work to do in complying with the conditions of acceptance." S. to Xp. 95.

in steps to xp. cp. 8, p. 67, it seems EGW says the ruit doesn't appear immediately but that we are to "grow up and bring forth fruit." Mark 4:28, "First the blade, then the ear, after that the FULL corn in the ear."

If the desire to live for Christ is there, we can talk about standards and the response I've always seen is, "These things don't really matter to me anyway." It's only those who have too much self
in themselves, who seem to argue with standards.

So these two quotes are wrong? We will have already obtained perfection so there is not more need to strive for it?

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Christ presents before us the highest perfection of Christian character, which throughout our lifetime we should aim to reach. . . . Concerning this perfection Paul writes: "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after. . . . I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus" (Phil. 3:12-15). . . .
That I May Know Him p.130

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Our work is to strive to attain in our sphere of action the perfection that Christ in His life on the earth attained in every phase of character.
That I May Know Him p.130

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Dave, I think you will agree that I have repeatedly affirmed that we will, so long as we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, continue to grow in grace and mature in the fruits of Spirit, that we will continue to "advance from one stage of perfection to another" (ML 250), and that this "work of progression will not cease, but will continue throughout eternity." (HP 186)

Do you agree with this conclusion?

Where I suspect we disagree is on the role of sinning and sanctification. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I hear you saying that sanctification includes 1) gradually outgrowing known sins, and 2) discovering unknown sins and then gradually outgrowing them.

And, that this process will continue until the day we die or until Jesus returns, that we will never truly be sinless in this lifetime, that there will always be known or unknown sins to deal with, that we will never be perfect, i.e., sinless.

And, that the insight - "so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained" (AA 56) - means we will always be sinful in one way or another, that we will always have sinful things to outgrow.

BTW, did you overlook the post about Peter's conversion? I provided a quote that makes it clear the converted Peter was very different.

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But the converted Peter was very different.

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