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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16822
01/11/06 06:37 PM
01/11/06 06:37 PM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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quote:
I know and understand the fundamental Bible principles as taught by the Seventh-day Adventist Church. It is my purpose, by the grace of God, to order my life in harmony with these principles.
This criteria includes all 28 beliefs. Again, these beliefs, whether summarized as one or one hundred beliefs, is everything Jesus commanded and commissioned the SDA church, the remnant of the apostolic church, to teach baptismal candidates to observe.
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16823
01/11/06 07:09 PM
01/11/06 07:09 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,009
Ohio
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Hoover:
Even if one may be perfect, to claim perfection is to exalt self, and that leads back to the sin of pride. So, the way I see it, no one can claim perfection.
"Double M's" responce: ![[Rolling Over For Laughter]](graemlins/ROFL.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Hoover:
What are we to do? Preach the "Good News," unveil the truth, and accept people into our fellowship.
"Double M's" responce:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Hoover:
Does that mean we were not teaching "all things" Jesus commanded untill this year (with the new (28th) fundamental belief)?
"Double M's" responce:
If Paul was perfect after his convertion, why did he have an argument about John Mark? Wan't it Paul that wrote:
quote:
But now also put these things out of your life: anger, bad temper, doing or saying things to hurt others, and using evil words when you talk.
Colossians 3:8 NCV
If he was perfect, why did he write:
quote:
I want to know Christ and the power that raised him from the dead. I want to share in his sufferings and become like him in his death. Then I have hope that I myself will be raised from the dead. I do not mean that I am already as God wants me to be. I have not yet reached that goal, but I continue trying to reach it and to make it mine. Christ wants me to do that, which is the reason he made me his. Brothers and sisters, I know that I have not yet reached that goal, but there is one thing I always do. Forgetting the past and straining toward what is ahead, I keep trying to reach the goal and get the prize for which God called me through Christ to the life above.
Philippians 3:10 – 14 NCV
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Hoover:
Peter deigned Jesus
"Double M's" responce:
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16824
01/12/06 02:17 AM
01/12/06 02:17 AM
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OP
SDA
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Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Hoover:
Even if one may be perfect, to claim perfection is to exalt self, and that leads back to the sin of pride. So, the way I see it, no one can claim perfection.
"Double M's" responce: However, claiming the promises of God is an altogether different matter.
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Hoover:
What are we to do? Preach the "Good News," unveil the truth, and accept people into our fellowship.
"Double M's" responce: Amen!
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Hoover:
Does that mean we were not teaching "all things" Jesus commanded untill this year (with the new (28th) fundamental belief)?
"Double M's" responce: I addressed this one in my last post. Please refer to it. Thank you.
If Paul was perfect after his convertion, why did he have an argument about John Mark? Wan't it Paul that wrote:
quote:
But now also put these things out of your life: anger, bad temper, doing or saying things to hurt others, and using evil words when you talk.
Colossians 3:8 NCV
If he was perfect, why did he write:
quote:
I want to know Christ and the power that raised him from the dead. I want to share in his sufferings and become like him in his death. Then I have hope that I myself will be raised from the dead. I do not mean that I am already as God wants me to be. I have not yet reached that goal, but I continue trying to reach it and to make it mine. Christ wants me to do that, which is the reason he made me his. Brothers and sisters, I know that I have not yet reached that goal, but there is one thing I always do. Forgetting the past and straining toward what is ahead, I keep trying to reach the goal and get the prize for which God called me through Christ to the life above.
Philippians 3:10 – 14 NCV
MM's Answer: Where does it say Paul sinned when he chose not to include John Mark in his upcoming missionary tour? quote:
Originally posted by Dave Hoover:
Peter deigned Jesus
"Double M's" responce: Peter denied Jesus before his conversion.
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16825
01/12/06 11:03 AM
01/12/06 11:03 AM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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What about Saul and David, kings in Israel?
What about Peter making a difference between jew and greek after both his conversion and his Cornelius experience hoping to gain favour from others traveling from Jerusalem?
/Thomas
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16826
01/12/06 11:12 AM
01/12/06 11:12 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,009
Ohio
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quote:
Originally posted by Mountain Man:
Peter denied Jesus before his conversion.
You do not think he was converted then? Does this mean we can call people to work in the churches before they are converted, as that is what Jesus must have done to call Peter to be his disciple? Was Peter baptized before or after Jesus’ death? As Thomas points out, Peter was afraid to eat with the gentiles when the Jews came, and Paul told him off for it. One had to be right and one had to be wrong.
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16827
01/13/06 01:35 AM
01/13/06 01:35 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Yes, Peter was converted (or, more accurately, had been converted, which is I think what your real question was -- as opposed to the question, "was Peter in a converted state?" -- but that might be what you meant as well; if so the answer would be "no"). All the disciples were converted (meaning that they had believed in Christ), except Judas. This is an important point to understand because otherwise we miss much of Jesus' instruction for converted persons such as the disciples and us. That is, by thinking we are converted, but they weren't, we are in danger of placing ourselves out of hearing that which the Lord would have us hear. Similar to Jesus' message to the Laodecians. If we think we are not Laodecians, we will not heed the advice to fix our condition. We had a long thread on this. Pretty ironic. We need eye salve to see our condition, but we insist -- insist! -- that the Lord is wrong and we already see. Thankfully we server a God who is infinite in patience, as well as kindness. I digress. The following text states that Jesus' disciples believed in Christ: quote:
This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him. (John 2:11)
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16828
01/13/06 12:40 PM
01/13/06 12:40 PM
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Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
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quote:
All the disciples were converted (meaning that they had believed in Christ), except Judas. This is an important point to understand because otherwise we miss much of Jesus' instruction for converted persons such as the disciples and us. That is, by thinking we are converted, but they weren't, we are in danger of placing ourselves out of hearing that which the Lord would have us hear.
Your first point is mistaken, but your last point is very true. The disciples may have believed in Jesus as the Messiah, and made their new career as the Twelve, but they were not converted until they understood the cross of Christ. Judas merely overstepped their jointly mistaken belief into presumption, and put himself indeed beyond teachability.
Before Calvary virtually all the disciples, including the other women, were not truly converted, bar probably Jesus' own mother and Mary Magdalene who is recorded as giving witness to her converted faith.
Nowadays it therefore necessary to gain a full understanding of grace in Christ and what that means in action to be able intelligently to profess faith as part of an endtime church - with the endtime righteousness agenda with Jesus that SDAism has, for instance.
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16829
01/15/06 12:34 AM
01/15/06 12:34 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,009
Ohio
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Hoover:
Was Peter baptized before or after Jesus’ death?
Since no one seems willing to toutch this, I thought I would throw this text out there,
quote:
Simon Peter answered, "Lord, then wash not only my feet, but wash my hands and my head, too!" Jesus said, "After a person has had a bath, his whole body is clean. He needs only to wash his feet. And you men are clean, but not all of you."
John 13:9 - 10 NCV
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16830
01/17/06 04:13 PM
01/17/06 04:13 PM
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OP
SDA
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Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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I agree with Colin. All of the disciples did wonderful miracles and baptized people BEFORE they were converted. Jesus gave them power to do these things not because they were converted but because they were testifying to His messianic credentials - including Judas.
Everything changed when Jesus was crucified and resurrected. Judas killed himself and the rest were converted. That's the power of the cross! Nevertheless, the cross and conversion does not take away our ability to choose, our ability to render or withhold obedience.
We are born again perfect (complete), we are not, however, born again mature. Like Jesus, who grew in grace and matured in the fruits of the Spirit, so too, we must grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit. And, so long as we are abiding in Jesus, so long as we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, so long as we are claiming the promises of perfection and partaking of the divine nature - we will not and cannot commit a known sin.
But again, these things are true SO LONG AS WE ARE connected to Jesus, the source of our success. We are always free to stop abiding in Him. The moment we take our eyes off Jesus we are right back where we started - in an unconverted state. It doesn't mean we were never truly converted the first time. Not at all. It just means that we disconnected from Jesus, which we are always free to do. Conversion doesn't cause us to lose the ability to sin. Being in fellowship with Jesus is what empowers us not to sin, it doesn't make us incapable of sinning.
Peter, for example, after his conversion and Cornelius encounter choose to ignore the Gentiles when his Jewish buddies showed up. Paul called him on it and Peter repented. In this case, the only time we hear about Peter sinning after his conversion, he took his eyes off Jesus. Disempowered as he was, he could only sin. He could not, disconnected from Jesus, do the right thing. Once he realized his sin, he immediately repented, and Jesus immediately forgave him and restored Peter to the mind of the new man.
This is the state we must be in before we get baptized. Getting baptized is a public testimony that we are dead to sin and awake to righteousness, that we are abiding in Jesus, that we are partaking of the divine nature, that we are free from our former sinfulness, that we are babes in Christ, that we are growing in grace and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit. That's what it means to be born again, to be converted.
But it doesn't mean we are incapable of taking our eyes off Jesus, in a moment of weakness or slackness or selfishness or whatever, and resurrecting our old man mind and reverting back to our former sinful ways. We are always free to do this. Even in heaven we will be free to sin, of course, no one will choose to sin in heaven, not because they will be incapable, but because they will not want to.
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16831
01/17/06 04:18 PM
01/17/06 04:18 PM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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I am bringing this post forward in the hopes that all of us can address the questions and comments made by Dave and mmyself. Thank you. quote:
Originally posted by Mountain Man: quote:
Dave, if we follow the counsel of the SOP, that is, if we thoroughly prepare people for baptism, what do they lack? What makes them imperfect? What makes them disobedient? What more is required before they are perfectly obedient?
Dave’s Answer:
MM’s Answer: They lack nothing. So long as they are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man nothing makes them imperfect, nothing makes them disobedient, and nothing more is required.
quote:
In what way was Paul imperfect? In what way was he disobedient? What was lacking in his life? Did he ever reach the “goal” or the “mark” he spoke about? If you believe he did reach the goal, in what way was he different before and after he reached the goal?
Dave’s Answer: Paul liked to argue and Peter deigned Jesus; does that sound like perfection to you?
MM’s Answer: Obviously, Paul sinned before his rebirth. But, there isn’t any evidence he sinned after his conversion and baptism. While Paul was walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man he was not imperfect or disobedient. The goal he was hoping to reach was to “attain unto the resurrection of the dead.” That is, he was striving to be faithful until the day he died. Yes, he was successful.
“I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.” (2 Timothy 4:7, 8)
quote:
Dave, help me understand the following insights:
“When a soul is truly converted, old habits and natural evil besetments are done away in Christ Jesus and all things become new.” (TMK 247) “There is not a stain in the character because God is enthroned in the heart and Christ does not war against Christ.” (1 S&T 246) “Transformation of heart means an entire change of the entire man.” (TDG 48)
According to these quotes, are we born again perfect or imperfect? By perfect I don’t mean mature; rather, I mean complete.
Dave’s Answer: Indeed, if we are to be perfect at baptism, why does Ellen White say that perfection should be reached for throughout a lifetime? Does that mean one cannot be baptized until they are about to die?
MM’s Answer: Sister White clearly says we are born again perfect, that is, complete. Nothing is missing or lacking when we are born again. We are not, however, born again mature. We begin at rebirth where Jesus began at birth. We start off with a clean slate. We begin the lifelong (including eternal life) process of maturing in the fruits of the Spirit, of developing the sinless traits of character we received the moment we were born again.
quote:
“All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes.” (COL 330) “When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing.” (DA 676)
According to these quotes, what are we missing or lacking the moment we are born again?
Dave’s Answer: When all becomes new, and one is transformed, it does not mean that one is perfect. It means that one has a desire and will to be perfect and will continue to run the race.
MM’s Answer: We are born again with all the righteous fruits and attributes of God’s character. Not one trait is missing. We do not gradually accumulate them after we are born again. Again, we are not born again mature. Like Jesus, who grew in grace and matured in the fruits of the Spirit, so too, born again believers will, so long as they are abiding in Jesus, grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit.
quote:
“At every stage of development our life may be perfect; yet if God’s purpose for us is fulfilled, there will also be continual advancement.” (COL 65) “Even the most perfect Christian may increase continually in the knowledge and love of God.” (1T 340) “‘The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.’ Through obedience comes sanctification of body, soul, and spirit. This sanctification is a progressive work, and an advance from one stage of perfection to another.” (ML 250)
According to these quotes, in what way are we different as we advance from one stage of perfection to another? Do we become less and less sinful, or do we become more and more mature in the fruits of Spirit?
Dave’s Answer: If we were talking about complete perfection, there would be nothing more to learn, but as there is more to learn, there is no absolute perfection.
MM’s Answer: Like Jesus, we begin perfect (complete) and, so long as we are abiding in Jesus, we become perfect (mature). We “advance from one stage of perfection to another.” We become more and more like Jesus, not less and less like Satan. While we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man we do not, and cannot, commit a known sin. See 1 John 3:1-10.
The promises of perfection do not imply that born again believers, who are abiding in Jesus, are incapable of committing a known sin. Not at all. To sin, however, we must first disconnect from Jesus, which automatically places us back in the resurrected mind of our old man, and then all we can do is sin. The gift of repentance empowers us to confess and forsake our sin, and it gives God the legal right to pardon us and to restore us to mind of the new man. The old man mind is crucified and buried.
quote:
“It is your work to advance toward perfection, making constant improvement, until at last you are pronounced worthy to receive immortal life. And even then the work of progression will not cease, but will continue throughout eternity.” (HP 186)
According to this quote, in what way will we progress throughout eternity, in what way will we be different?
Dave’s Answer:
MM’s Answer: The progress we make throughout eternity is no different than the progress we make here on earth. We will continue to mature in the fruits of the Spirit throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity. Eternity isn’t long enough to exhaust our potential to become more and more mature. The difference we experience as we grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit, beginning at rebirth and continuing throughout eternity, is measured in depth and degree of righteousness, not in terms of becoming less and less sinful.
quote:
“Those only who through faith in Christ obey all of God’s commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. They testify to their love of Christ by obeying all His precepts.” (6BC 1118)
According to this quote, do we start off [at rebirth] sinless, or do we end up sinless? If we end up sinless, how long does it take? And, why don’t we start off sinless?
Dave’s Answer:
MM’s Answer: We start off sinless or complete. We do not, however, start off mature. As stated repeatedly above, we, like Jesus, begin perfect (complete), and we become perfect (mature) as we grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit. But again, eternity isn’t long enough to exhaust our potential to become more and more mature.
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