Sorry, Mountain Man, saying I thought it was cute to think we need to be perfect before baptism. MM, I just don't seem this emphasis in the scriptures. I see more of an emphasis on repenting, and that Jesus called sinners, not the rightous. I just don't see this emphasis at all.

And then in the reality of people's lives. I don't say we are going to be going on sinning habitually, but I just don't understand your insistence on perfection.

You should see how I got nailed on Pat Robertson post. Help!!

Yeah, rhammen, that's the fear of emphasizing one third of the plan of salvation (justification, sanctification, and glorification). It's hard to discuss all three at the same time. And, I agree, justification is probably the most important one out of the three. Without it, the other two would be impossible. On the other hand, though, justification would be worthless without the other two.

As you know, one of Satan's primary goals is to prevent God from perfecting His church, that is, the church members. If he can keep us from cooperating with God to perfect our characters, then he can theoretcally win the great controversy. Of course, it won't happen. God's people will be perfect. That's what it says in the Bible and the SOP.

Most people, however, assume the promises of perfection apply only to the final generation of saints. But that's not true. God is no respecter of persons. His promises apply to all people throughout all time. Otherwise, His promises are impotent. Perfection, according to the promises, is a gift. It's not something we achieve after years of becoming less and less sinful.

Perfection is a gift we receive the moment we're born again, both legally and really. We begin as babes, like Jesus, then, as we walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man, we mature more and more in the fruits of the Spirit. That's how it works. That's how the promises describe it.

Any detours we may take back into sin are not part of the promises of perfection. They only apply while we're in Christ. 1 John 2:1, 2 is the only promise in the entire Bible that applies to post-conversion sins. Thank God for that promise, though. Most of us need it quite often.

Yeah, the promises of perfection apply only while we're abiding in Jesus. Plain and simple. There is no reason to insist they do not mean what they plainly say. Falling and failing after we are born again is not part of the plan, not part of the promises of perfection. Again, they are true of us only when we are connected to Jesus. So, let the truth be true. Let's not force the promises of perfection to apply to us while we are taking a detour back through sin.

Matthew
5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

John
14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Romans
6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

2 Corinthians
7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Hebrews
6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

1 Peter
4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

DA 671
The very image of God is to be reproduced in humanity. The honor of God, the honor of Christ, is involved in the perfection of the character of His people. {DA 671.3}

COL 69
Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69.1}

MM,

but don't forget about waht Jesus said, "First the stem, then the leaf, then the full ear of corn."

I guess I just have a hard time seeing a spouting grain of corn as perfect (mature= ripe) when it hasn't even begun to develop the ear of corn.

Did you check out the Pat Robertson line? Do you konw much about Graham Maxwell. Kevin is a close follower of him. Check it out!

D

Jesus also followed the same progression as the plant analogy as He grew in grace and matured in the fruits of the Spirit. Perfect at each stage doesn't mean imperfect. The undeveloped part of a plant does not symbolize sin or imperfections.

I'll check into the PR thread.

"We shall often have to bow down and weep at the feet of Jesus because of our shortcomings and mistakes,"

and the other,

"The closer you come to Jesus, the more faulty you will appear in your own eyes, for your vision will be clearer, and your imperfections will be seen in broad and distinct contrast to His PERFECT nature. " p. 64

"No deep-seated love for Jesus can dwell in the heart that does not realize its own sinfulness."

"THe less we see to esteem in ourselves, the more we shall see to esteem in the infinite purity and loveliness of our saviour. A view of our sinfulness drives us to Him who can pardon; "

I guess in these quotes I see I difference between Jesus and us. Jesus never had to realize his own sinfulness, we do. How do you deal with these quotes? Do you feel you need a savior for your life right now, or just for your past life? When I see these quotes, all I can say is there mustn't be any "perfect" people unless our perfection isn't a perfect perfection. I know God sees us as perfect in Christ and as you say if we abide in him, we don't go on sinning. But that's the battle. We don't perfetly abide in Him and that's why We shall often have to bow down and weep at the feet of Jesus because of our shortcomings and mistakes," - for we all "fal short of the Glory of God" and He is perfect.

rhammen, realizing our "sinfulness" in the presence of Jesus doesn't imply sinning. In this life, in this body, we are sinful. But, again, being sinful and sinning are two totally different things. Remember, Jesus Himself possessed a sinful flesh nature. During His earthly sojourn Jesus was thoroughly aware of its clamorings and propensities.

Jesus’ flesh warred against His spirit in the exact same way ours does. He was completely aware of the sinfulness of His human nature. And, as our example, Jesus kept His sinful “flesh with the affections and lusts” under the subjection of a sanctified mind and will. “I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection.” (1 Corinthians 9:27)

“His human nature was created; it did not even possess the angelic powers. It was human, identical with our own.” (6 MR 111) “Think of Christ’s humiliation. He took upon Himself fallen, suffering human nature, degraded and defiled by sin. He took our sorrows, bearing our grief and shame. He endured all the temptations wherewith man is beset.” (4 BC 1147) “In him was no guile or sinfulness; he was ever pure and undefiled; yet he took upon him our sinful nature.” (RH 8-22-1907) “In doing this He took upon Himself the nature of weak, sinful humanity, and came to this world to battle with the powers of darkness.” (2 S&T 299)

“He felt the overwhelming tide of woe that deluged the world. He realized the strength of indulged appetite and of unholy passion that controlled the world.” (7A 450) “Many who profess godliness do not inquire into the reason of Christ’s long period of fasting and suffering in the wilderness. His anguish was not so much from enduring the pangs of hunger as from His sense of the fearful result of the indulgence of appetite and passion upon the race.” (1 SM 284) “He assumed human nature, with its infirmities, its liabilities, its temptations.” (3 SM 132) “A divine-human saviour, He came to stand at the head of the fallen race, to share in their experience from childhood to manhood.” (7A 444)

The quotes where Sister White talks about weeping when we fall into sin do not imply we cannot cease sinning in this lifetime. There are hundreds of quotes where she says sinning is unnecessary and avoidable. The idea that it is inevitable is unbiblical.

The Bible and the SOP make it clear that we will not and cannot commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus. I'm glad you agree. However, the promises of perfection do not say born again believers are incapable of sinning. To commit a known sin, however, we must disconnect from Jesus, and then all we can do is sin.

Therefore, the trick is to stay connected to Jesus. Jesus must be first and last and best in our life. Nothing matters more than abiding in Jesus. "For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified." (1 Corinthians 2:2)

What does it take to stay connected to Jesus?

Faith, belief, trust. Faith is the victory.

To continually abide in Jesus requires believing it is possible to stay connected to Him at all times, and under all circumstances. Nothing weakens the arm of faith more than doubt and disbelief. No one is willing to endure resisting sin unto blood, if need be, if they do not believe it is possible or necessary. It is the truth, the truth as it is in Jesus, that sets us free, and then keeps us free.

OK, let's say, I'm abiding in Jesus but
"The closer you come to Jesus," (as I abide in Him) "the more faulty you will appear in your own eyes, for your vision will be clearer, and your imperfections will be seen in broad and distinct contrast to His PERFECT nature. " p. 64

My imperfections will be seen in broad distinct contrast to His Perfect nature.

So, you are preparing someone for baptism. He/she wants to be baptized. What is the requirement? Have you sinned today, brother? Are you perfect?
No one would be ready if you wait for them to be perfect, though in Christ they are perfect.

Are you still addicted to any vices, outward adornments that are against the Bible standard?

Did Philip ask the Ethiopian Eunuch, "Are you perfect?"

"What doth hinder me from being baptized?"

"If thou believeth with all thine heaert, thou mayest."

Again, the ability to see our faults, sinfulness, imperfections more fully as we abide in Jesus does not imply sinning. That's an assumption some people make. But it isn't true. We are faulty, sinful, imperfect because we live in sinfu flesh - not because we are sinning. It is our sinful flesh that is faulty, sinful, imperfect.

3SM 130
[Jesus] came into our world to maintain a pure, sinless character, and to refute Satan’s lie that it was not possible for human beings to keep the law of God. Christ came to live the law in His human character in just that way in which all may live the law in human nature if they will do as Christ was doing. He had inspired holy men of old to write for the benefit of man: ‘Let him take hold of my strength, that he may make peace with me; and he shall make peace with me’ (Isaiah 27:5). Abundant provision has been made that finite, fallen man may so connect with God that, through the same Source by which Christ overcame in His human nature, he may stand firmly against every temptation, as did Christ. (3SM 130)

When a person is baptized they are testifying publicly that they love Jesus, that they are abiding in Him, that they are dead to sin and awake to righteousness. They have given up their former life of sin, they are new creatures in Christ. By the grace of God it is their plan to "go and sin no more."

Amen, MM. Now, those are words I can agree with.

Well, good, but that's what I've been saying along, right?