kland,

You seem to be overly focused on the examples rather than the underlying principles. If you want to say that throwing stones or using an instrument of iron (a sword certainly is one) is always murder, then you have a problem with acts of war, which are NOT murder, or with acts commanded by God for the benefit of His people--again NOT murder.

Let's look at two examples:

David and Goliath

God's Spirit prompted David to put an end to the man who terrorized the entire Israelite army for 40 days with his arrogant taunts against God. (Remember, cursing God was also a capital offense.) This was in a war. The Philistines were attempting to subjugate the entire Israelite nation. The Israelites were defending themselves. Was it murder because David used both a stone and a sword to slay the giant at God's direction?

Of course not.

Prophet Samuel

Was it murder for the prophet Samuel to kill King Agag by sword when King Saul had failed to do this duty at God's command?

Of course not.

But if one tries to form micro-rules from the examples that the Bible gives, rules to be applied in absolutely every case, regardless of context, one will easily find contradictions such as your mind must be seeing now.

The examples of stones and instruments of iron were not given within the context of soldiers fighting, nor of execution of justice. They were given in the context of personal feuds. If you were to read and study the matter in the Bible yourself with an open mind, I think it would explain itself well enough.

If, because the Bible sets out the use of an instrument of iron as an example for knowing when a particular act of killing should be considered murder, one chooses to say that all killings by sword or by knife are "murder," then one has a problem. The problem is that God has commanded killings of this type.

kland, how would you exonerate God in those cases where He commanded killings? Here's an example from Exodus.



Mrs. White comments regarding the passage above as follows:



Mrs. White upholds Moses for issuing the command given him of God, and says that after having decreed this "work of justice to turn away the wrath of God," Moses had proved himself a true friend of God.

Do you presume to declare that God sinned in giving opposite commands? Do you believe that God broke His own Ten Commandments by commanding people to kill?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Hello GREEN - - Did God give rules for divorce? YES! Does not divorce lead to a violation of the ten commandments? YES. WHY did God give such rules? Because of the hardness of their hearts. Did the nation of Israel fight all through out its existence? YES. Because this is what God wanted? NO!!! Did God give commands for how to conduct war? YES! WHY? Because Israel was going to fight, because their hearts were blinded. WHY do YOU remain BLIND? Is the testimony of Jesus of non-effect to you? What was Jesus's testimony? DO NOT FIGHT! Israel in the Old Testament never needed to fight. Did they fight to get out of Egypt? No. Did Gideon fight? No. Did Jehoshaphat have to fight? No. He sang! Put your trust in God, not weapons. Our sword is the word of God.

Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son!

1. Does divorce always break the Ten Commandments? If so, then why would God gives rules for how to break His own commandments? You contradict yourself.

2. How was King Saul supposed to kill the Amalekites, including King Agag--by quoting the Word of God to them?

I challenge you to answer these questions straightly.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I contradict myself? You are not understanding what was going on in the Old Testament!

King Saul - - HELLO GREEN - Israel NEVER NEEDED a king - they HAD A KING - GOD! They rejected GOD as King. You do not understand what was going on in the Old Testament!

Was Israel getting better and better after leaving Egypt? NO! They were getting worse and worse.

Jeremiah 7:22-28 For I spoke not to your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: 23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people: and walk you in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well to you. 24 But they listened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward. 25 Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt to this day I have even sent to you all my servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them: 26 Yet they listened not to me, nor inclined their ear, but hardened their neck: they did worse than their fathers. 27 Therefore you shall speak all these words to them; but they will not listen to you: you shall also call to them; but they will not answer you. 28 But you shall say to them, This is a nation that obeys not the voice of the LORD their God, nor receives correction: truth is perished, and is cut off from their mouth.

Why the Israelites Fought

"But the children of Israel did fight throughout all their natural existence, and under God's direction, too," it will be urged. That is very true, but it does not at all prove that it was God's purpose that they should fight. We must not forget that "their minds were blinded" by unbelief, so that they could not perceive the purpose of God for them. They did not grasp the spiritual realities of the kingdom of God, but were content with shadows instead; and the same God who bore with their hardness of heart in the beginning, and strove to teach them by shadows, when they would not have the substance, still remained with them, compassionately considerate of their infirmities. God himself suffered them, because of the hardness of their hearts, to have a plurality of wives, and even laid down rules regulating polygamy, in order to diminish as far as possible the resulting evils, but that does not prove that He designed it for them. We well know that "from the beginning it was not so." So when Jesus forbade His followers to fight in any cause whatever, He introduced nothing new, any more than when He taught that a man should have but one wife, and should cleave to her as long as he lived. He was simply enunciating first principles--preaching a thorough reformation. {1900 EJW, EVCO 385.2}

Why are we making the same mistakes and not grasping the spiritual realities of the Kingdom of God? Jesus forbade His followers from fighting! We need a thorough reformation in the Adventist church. But our members are refusing... God did give rules to what? Minimize the RESULTING EVIL.

* * * MOD HAT ON * * *

This thread is not about divorce, polygamy, or the need of a king. It's not even specifically about why or why not fight, or whether God would command to fight, though this is nearer to the topic and has been tolerated somewhat insofar as it relates to the topic. When the majority of your post is off on a tangent like this, it shows a disrespect of those who are desirous of addressing the topic of the thread, namely, the distinction between killing and murder. Your post did not address this distinction.

Please post on-topic, or further posts of yours will be deleted in this thread. Lest you say the mention of "King Saul" was speaking of kings, I will inform you that I was merely using the title to specify the person. My post had nothing at all to do with kingship. If you have any complaints about the rules of the forum, PM Daryl. If you have a complaint about my moderation here, PM me.



* * * MOD HAT OFF * * *

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

APL,

Regarding killing:

It is my firm conviction that to follow God's command is righteousness, and to disregard even the least of His commands, for whatever reason, is sin.

This means, even if I deceive myself into thinking a certain way, I am not able to change the truth into falsehood or vice versa.

If, therefore, God commands killing, to kill is righteous. Period. God has His reasons for giving every command that He gives. It is not my special need to know all of those reasons. Abraham could not understand God's command to kill Isaac, the son of promise. But he obeyed. His obedience put him into faith's hall of fame, even though an angel stayed his hand at the last to prevent him from actually sacrificing his son. If one can "kill" by so much as a thought, Abraham had certainly fulfilled God's requirement in killing his son, having already put the thought to action.

We may not always know or understand why God requires certain things of us. These lessons from the Old Testament are for our instruction and admonition.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Facts:

God has commanded killing.
God never commands us to break His commandments.

Therefore, killing is not always a violation of the commandments of God, and there must absolutely be a division between righteous killing and evil, murderous killing. For the Bible to be unclear about such a distinction would be to engender confusion. Since the Bible tells us that God is not the author of confusion, we know from whence the confusion comes. It is not from God nor from His Word.

The confusion is cleared up in many passages of the Bible, including those for which tables are posted in the start of this thread. For any who are truly seeking God's perspective on the matter, please investigate those passages thoroughly.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Green, you were the one who brought up the examples, and specified stones and instruments of iron.

I never asked for examples, though we may talk about examples and see how they fit (or not fit) your definition, changing and non-specified as it may be. I have been asking for the underlying absolute principle that an eighth grader can understand from the get go. I guess you've been supplying examples all this time. Can you state a principle for the difference between killing and murder? I have been saying you cannot. And you have not. You created tables to give some anecdotal examples you think somehow relate to the distinction and that you have then refuted. So you still have not given the underlying principle for the difference between Killing and Murder.


Could you review for us, what was the reason, what was your purpose for creating this thread, what question was it intended to answer?

Did God ever give commands to people that were not His ideal because of the hardness of the people's hearts? Answer: YES.

Have you no reply for what I quoted? None?
"But the children of Israel did fight throughout all their natural existence, and under God's direction, too," it will be urged. [green!] That is very true, but it does not at all prove that it was God's purpose that they should fight. [And answer to this green?] We must not forget that "their minds were blinded" by unbelief, so that they could not perceive the purpose of God for them. They did not grasp the spiritual realities of the kingdom of God, but were content with shadows instead; and the same God who bore with their hardness of heart in the beginning, and strove to teach them by shadows, when they would not have the substance, still remained with them, compassionately considerate of their infirmities."

God stayed with them, yet they would not follow. An amazing God, even when they went against His commandments He worked with them.

We are not ready for more light unless we follow the light we already have.

Killing vs. Murder
Killing	Text	Murder	Text
Killing "any person at unawares"	Numbers 35:11	Killing "with an instrument of iron"	Numbers 35:16
As the "revenger of blood," killing the murderer "when he meeteth him," without hatred, lying in wait, etc.	Numbers 35:19-21	Killing by "throwing a stone wherewith he may die"	Numbers 35:17
Killing a neighbor ignorantly, such as when the ax head slips off the handle and strikes him while cutting wood	Deuteronomy 19:4-5	"But if any man hate his neighbour, and lie in wait for him, and rise up against him, and smite him mortally that he die, and fleeth into one of these cities: Then the elders of his city shall send and fetch him thence, and deliver him into the hand of the avenger of blood, that he may die.	Deuteronomy 19:11-12

Given just that, can a reasonable person conclude that the Bible makes a distinction between different types of killing?