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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16852
01/31/06 07:30 PM
01/31/06 07:30 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
We are faulty, sinful, imperfect because we live in sinfu flesh - not because we are sinning.
This can't be right, because then Jesus would be faulty, sinful and imperfect, since He lived in the same flesh we do, correct?
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16853
02/01/06 02:40 PM
02/01/06 02:40 PM
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OP
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quote:
We are faulty, sinful, imperfect because we live in sinful flesh - not because we are sinning. It is our sinful flesh that is faulty, sinful, imperfect.
Tom, do you agree that Jesus' human nature was faulty, sinful, and imperfect? and that in spite of it He, like born again believers, was able to perfect sinless traits of character?
Sister White makes it clear that "humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin." Peter, John, and Paul all agree. There is nothing faulty, sinful, or imperfect about the traits of character we develop while partaking of the divine nature.
MH 180
The Saviour took upon Himself the infirmities of humanity and lived a sinless life, that men might have no fear that because of the weakness of human nature they could not overcome. Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin. {MH 180.5}
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16854
02/01/06 06:10 PM
02/01/06 06:10 PM
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MM, you didn't answer my question, did you? You wrote, "We are faulty, sinful, imperfect because we live in sinful flesh - not because we are sinning." I commented that this assertion cannot be correct because Jesus lived in sinful flesh, yet we could not say of Him that He was "faulty," "sinful," or "imperfect." I asked you if this is correct. quote:
Tom, do you agree that Jesus' human nature was faulty, sinful, and imperfect? and that in spite of it He, like born again believers, was able to perfect sinless traits of character?
The Spirit of Prophecy warns us that we should be very careful in how we address Christ's nature, and we do well to heed her advice. I would not phrase things as you have, and note that the Spirit of Prophecy never phrased things the way you have here. That is, she never stated that Jesus' human nature was "faulty," "sinful," or "imperfect." She stated that Christ took upon His own sinless nature our sinful nature.
This may seem like splitting hairs, but it's not. We need to be very clear, as clear as possible, that there was nothing regarding Christ which was not sinless, or perfect. It is true that Christ became flesh, and the flesh He took was the same flesh that we have, but Christ was sinless, pefect and faultless in that flesh. The Spirit of Prophecy writes that all that He was in human nature, we may be; which is, sinless, faultless, and perfect.
quote:
Sister White makes it clear that "humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin." Peter, John, and Paul all agree. There is nothing faulty, sinful, or imperfect about the traits of character we develop while partaking of the divine nature.
MH 180
The Saviour took upon Himself the infirmities of humanity and lived a sinless life, that men might have no fear that because of the weakness of human nature they could not overcome. Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin. {MH 180.5}
There is nothing faulty, sinful, or imperfect about God or God's work. Everything associated with us is imperfect, which the Spirit of Prophecy makes clear in many occasions. It's also obvious.
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16855
02/02/06 01:33 AM
02/02/06 01:33 AM
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quote:
Everything associated with us is imperfect, which the Spirit of Prophecy makes clear in many occasions. It's also obvious.
Tom, I'm having a hard time reconciling this idea with the multitude of Bible and SOP insights that clearly say - "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he [Jesus] is righteous." (1 John 3;7)
I'm also having a hard time with the idea that insists Jesus did not possess a faulty, sinful, imperfect human nature. I agree that His character was sinless, but I also believe His human nature was identical to ours. "His human nature was created; it did not even possess the angelic powers. It was human, identical with our own." (3SM 129)
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16856
02/02/06 02:24 PM
02/02/06 02:24 PM
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quote:
I commented that this assertion cannot be correct because Jesus lived in sinful flesh, yet we could not say of Him that He was "faulty," "sinful," or "imperfect." I asked you if this is correct.
Correct. Jesus' character was sinless, but His human nature was sinful, defiled, degraded, and unholy.
“He took upon Himself fallen, suffering human nature, degraded and defiled by sin.” (4 BC 1147)
“He felt the overwhelming tide of woe that deluged the world. He realized the strength of indulged appetite and of unholy passion that controlled the world.” (7A 450)
“He assumed human nature, with its infirmities, its liabilities, its temptations.” (3 SM 132)
“For four thousand years the race had been decreasing in physical strength, in mental power, and in moral worth; and Christ took upon Him the infirmities of degenerate humanity. Only thus could He rescue man from the lowest depths of his degradation.” (DA 117)
“Christ did not possess the same sinful, corrupt, fallen disloyalty we possess, for then He could not be a perfect offering.” (6 MR 112)
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16857
02/02/06 08:10 PM
02/02/06 08:10 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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Old Tom:I commented that this assertion cannot be correct because Jesus lived in sinful flesh, yet we could not say of Him that He was "faulty," "sinful," or "imperfect." I asked you if this is correct.
MM:Correct.
Tom:Just to be clear, I stated that you're statement could not be correct, and gave the reason why. When you state "correct" here, the implication is that you are recognizing the error in your previous statement by agreeing with my assertion that your statement is incorrect. But then you continue to write along the same lines you were writing before, which is exactly what I was pointing out was incorrect.
So by "correct" did you mean "incorrect"?
I think where the confusion is coming in is in not distinguishing between Christ's nature and the human nature which He assumed. You use the phrase "His human nature" in connection with words like "faulty" "imperfect" etc. This is unfortunate. These phrases can be easily misconstrued to mean you believe there was something faulty or imperfect regarding Christ. It was exactly this sort of confusion the Spirit of Prophecy warned us to avoid in the infamous Baker letter.
You will notice that the Spirit of Prophecy never uses the language you are using. She is very careful in her language. She speaks of the language Christ "took" or "assumed". These verbs make clear the distinction between that which was His by nature (i.e. sinless and divine) as opposed to that which He assumed (our fallen nature). To say Christ's human nature was "defiled," "sinful," or any similar thing is not a good choice of words, because it may imply His participation in sin. Once again, this phraseology is never used in any inspired quotes.
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16858
02/02/06 08:19 PM
02/02/06 08:19 PM
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quote:
I'm also having a hard time with the idea that insists Jesus did not possess a faulty, sinful, imperfect human nature. I agree that His character was sinless, but I also believe His human nature was identical to ours. "His human nature was created; it did not even possess the angelic powers. It was human, identical with our own." (3SM 129)
This is better stated than some of the other things you said. I agree that Christ took the very same nature we have; which is to say, He possessed the same flesh with all its temptations which we have. I also agree that Christ's character is what set Him apart.
However, I disagree with your assertion that our nature corrupts. It doesn't. Christ coming into contact with our nature receives no pollution, as the DA quote I provided states. It is not nature that pollutes, but sin. This is an important point to understand.
Secondly, we need to be careful how we put things. Nowhere does inspiration state anything like "Christ's human nature was defiled". EGW says things like Christ took our fallen nature upon His own sinless nature.
Christ was *made* flesh. He was "in the likeness" of sinful flesh. Christ took part of our flesh, but it was not the sum and substance of who He was, unlike we who only human. Christ was both human and divine, and He took our sinful nature upon His sinful nature. (Content)
In our communication, we need to make clear our belief that Christ was divine and sinless, and saying something like "Christ's human nature was faulty" is not a good way of conveying this.
So to summarize, there's only one point I'm disagreeing with, as far as content is concerned, which is the paragraph ending with (Content). The other point I've been raising has to do with form, not content. I agree with your perspective regarding the fact that Christ took our fallen human nature, but am simply taking issue with how you are communicating that perspective.
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16859
02/02/06 10:03 PM
02/02/06 10:03 PM
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quote:
... yet we could not say of Him that He was "faulty," "sinful," or "imperfect."
Correct, we cannot say of Him that He was faulty, sinful, or imperfect. But we can say of His human nature that it was “degraded and defiled by sin.” I am taking great pains to differentiate between His human nature and His human character.
quote:
Nowhere does inspiration state anything like "Christ's human nature was defiled".
“He took upon Himself fallen, suffering human nature, degraded and defiled by sin.” (4 BC 1147)
The idea that assuming human nature, taking the likeness of it upon Him, means something different than how we inherit human nature seems strange to me. In what way was Jesus’ human nature different than ours? In what way did He possess it differently than we do?
What does the following scripture warns us about concerning Jesus' flesh?
1 John
4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16860
02/02/06 10:09 PM
02/02/06 10:09 PM
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Here's another quote dealing with the "feeling unworthy" in the presence of God. Please note that it refers to how the 144,000 feel after probations closes, after they have been numbered and sealed, in other words, after the record and memory of their sins has been blotted out, after they have been declared sinless and made perfect. quote:
“Had not Jacob previously repented of his sin in obtaining the birthright by fraud, God would not have heard his prayer and mercifully preserved his life. So, in the time of trouble, if the people of God had unconfessed sins to appear before them while tortured with fear and anguish, they would be overwhelmed; despair would cut off their faith, and they could not have confidence to plead with God for deliverance. But while they have a deep sense of their unworthiness, they have no concealed wrongs to reveal. Their sins have gone beforehand to judgment and have been blotted out, and they cannot bring them to remembrance.
....
“Jacob’s history is also an assurance that God will not cast off those who have been deceived and tempted and betrayed into sin, but who have returned unto Him with true repentance. While Satan seeks to destroy this class, God will send His angels to comfort and protect them in the time of peril. The assaults of Satan are fierce and determined, his delusions are terrible; but the Lord’s eye is upon His people, and His ear listens to their cries. Their affliction is great, the flames of the furnace seem about to consume them; but the Refiner will bring them forth as gold tried in the fire. God’s love for His children during the period of their severest trial is as strong and tender as in the days of their sunniest prosperity; but it is needful for them to be placed in the furnace of fire; their earthliness must be consumed, that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected.” (GC 620, 621)
If sinless people can feel unworthy and defective in the presence of God, then, obviously, it does not imply they are sinning or have unknown sins which have yet to be revealed, confessed, and crucified.
So, why do you think sinless people, living in a sinful body and world, feel unworthy and defective in the presence of God? And, what is the earthliness that must be consumed after probation closes, after they are already perfect?
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16861
02/02/06 10:15 PM
02/02/06 10:15 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
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Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
The idea that assuming human nature, taking the likeness of it upon Him, means something different than how we inherit human nature seems strange to me. In what way was Jesus’ human nature different than ours? In what way did He possess it differently than we do?
Two ways. First of all, Christ is not by nature human. By nature He is divine, and sinless. Hence the need to clarify by using the word "took," or by some similar means. Note, for example, Romans 8:3 does not say that Christ came in sinful flesh, but in the likeness of sinful flesh. Christ's flesh was just like ours, but Christ is not limited to being only flesh, like we are.
Secondly, Christ never sinned. When one speaks of human nature, this may mean, depending on the context, either what we are genetically, or what we have developed, or both.
So the reason the Spirit of Prophecy never says something like "Christ's human nature is defiled" is that this could give a wrong impression.
What is is that defiles? It is sin. To say the one's human nature is defiled is to imply that one has sinned. This is the way the Spirit of Prophecy always uses this term. She never intimates that anything other than sin defiles. Hence, since Christ never sinned, He could not have defiled His nature. If you say His nature was defiled, the implication is that He sinned.
If you say something like, "Christ took our fallen nature, defiled by sin, yet never sinned in that nature which He took" that avoids any hint of impropriety, which agrees with the counsel of the Baker letter.
Those who oppose the idea that Christ took our nature already accuse those of us who express the idea that He did as making Christ a sinner. Since that is already their disposition, we should bend over backwards to make clear that's not what we are saying; again, as we are conseled to do in the Baker letter.
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