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Re: What does God require before we are baptized? #16882
02/06/06 02:04 AM
02/06/06 02:04 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
quote:
Tom, the SOP uses defiled, degraded, degenerate, sinful, and unholy to describe the human nature Jesus inherited at His incarnation. His human nature was exactly like ours.{/quote]

Sure, there's no problem with this. This is the same language we should use. The problem comes when we say things like His nature was defiled, or something like that. She's very careful to qualify her statements so as to avoid any confusion, which is just what we should do. Don't you agree?

[quote]Please notice that I am making a distinction between nature and character. Two of your favorite authors, Jones and Waggoner, did the same thing.

Yes, this is good to do. Make clear when you're speaking of Christ's human nature that you're referring to the human nature he took. Remember the word "nature" can have many different meanings.

Old Tom:An area where MM and I differ is that he thinks that our nature defiles us, but I maintain this cannot be the case because then it would have defiled Christ, since He took the same nature we have.

MM:Actually, I’m not totally clear on this. I suspect the corrupt human channels Sister White wrote about are somehow related to our sinful flesh nature.

Tom: This is what the pre-lapsarians argue, but it's not correct. If you take a look at Sister White's writings, you will see that she is consistent in maintaining that it is sin, and not the flesh, which defiles. The DA quote I provided makes that clear. Also the 1SM quote that's come up makes this clear, if you read it carefully.

If nature defiles, then Christ would have been defiled. That can't be.

quote:
But when we partake of the divine nature, our prayers and praise pass through the divine nature, which purifies them, making them as pleasing and acceptable to God as though they came from Jesus.
No. It's not divine nature that purifies. You're making it sound like some sore of magic potion or something like that.

Sin causes it's damage in the mind. It is with the mind that we choose to sin. It is the mind that needs to be healed. Christ's mind did not need to be healed, because He never sinned.

The purpose of Christ's ministry was to reveal the character of God. When we believe that which Christ revealed, then our minds our healed. This is justification by faith. We are healed by beileving the truth.

quote:
In other words, Jesus doesn’t wait to purify our prayers and praise until after the fact. Instead, He first purifies us, next He empowers us to partake of the nature, and then our prayers and praise ascend to God through the divine nature with the blood and righteousness of Jesus. He doesn’t mix them in afterwards.
Of course He must purify us first. Prayers and praise cannot be purified. This is a figure of speech, a means of communication. Prayers are not an entity like a person which can be purified. People are purified. They are purified by faith, when they believe the truth which Christ revealed.

quote:
Remember, Jesus set aside His own divinity and lived His life just like a born again believer.
No, Christ did not set aside His divinity. He set aside the perogatives of divinity. He did not cease to be God.

Re: What does God require before we are baptized? #16883
02/06/06 02:05 AM
02/06/06 02:05 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
quote:
If Jesus were to wait to purify our prayers and praise until after they leave us, all defiled, displeasing, and unacceptable, it would be too late. To be acceptable and pleasing they must be purified at the source, before they proceed from us. First make the spring clean and then that which flows from it will be pure. A bad tree cannot bear good fruit, and bad fruit cannot be made good afterwards.

Yes! This is well stated.

Re: What does God require before we are baptized? #16884
02/06/06 02:30 PM
02/06/06 02:30 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, it looks like we're starting to say the same thing about nature and character. Jesus' human nature was defiled and sinful, but His character was pure and sinless. Though He was 100% human, He was also 100% divine. He did not use His own divine nature to overcome His sinful nature; instead, like a born again believer, He chose to partake of His Father’s divine nature.

This combination made it possible for His prayers and praise to ascend to the Father pure and pleasing. The same thing applies to born again believers. When they partake of the divine nature their prayers and praise ascend to the Father pure and pleasing because the blood and righteousness of Jesus has cleansed them from all sin and unrighteousness.

But we still haven’t clearly defined the corrupt channels of humanity. What are they?

Re: What does God require before we are baptized? #16885
02/07/06 03:05 AM
02/07/06 03:05 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
quote:
Tom, it looks like we're starting to say the same thing about nature and character.
The dispute has been over your unfortunate choice of words in expressing the concepts, not the concepts.

quote:
Jesus' human nature was defiled and sinful, but His character was pure and sinless.
Like here, I think this is a very bad thing to say. To me it clearly goes against EGW's consel in the Baker letter. Instead you would be much better off using the language of inspiration, rather that replacing the clear language with unclear language which can give a wrong impression. Nowhere will you find EGW writing that Jesus' human nature was defiled and sinful. Instead she writes about the human nature which Christ took or assumed. This apparently seems like splitting hairs to you, as you don't see the difference, but there's a reason she expressed herself the way she did.

quote:
Though He was 100% human, He was also 100% divine. He did not use His own divine nature to overcome His sinful nature; instead, like a born again believer, He chose to partake of His Father’s divine nature.
I agree He did not take advantage of His own divinity. What I was disagreeing with was your statement that He set aside His divinity (He didn't). I agree with what you have written here.

quote:
This combination made it possible for His prayers and praise to ascend to the Father pure and pleasing. The same thing applies to born again believers. When they partake of the divine nature their prayers and praise ascend to the Father pure and pleasing because the blood and righteousness of Jesus has cleansed them from all sin and unrighteousness.
Yes, I agree with this. The important thing to notice, in the context of our conversation, is that it is the righteousness of Christ which does the cleansing, not the divine nature.

quote:
But we still haven’t clearly defined the corrupt channels of humanity. What are they?
"Channels of humanity" is simply referring to the human being, who is defiled by sin. Your statement explaining why the person offering prayers or whatever needs to be purified first, rather than the prayers being purified after the fact, was very well stated. Sin defiles us, and faith in Christ "undefiles" us. Nature is not involved here (although, of course, our nature promts us to sin -- but that's not the issue being discussed here; that is, it is not nature which defiles, but sin).

Re: What does God require before we are baptized? #16886
02/07/06 03:53 AM
02/07/06 03:53 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
quote:
Instead she writes about the human nature which Christ took or assumed. This apparently seems like splitting hairs to you, as you don't see the difference, but there's a reason she expressed herself the way she did.

But, Tom, by insisting on this difference it sounds like you are saying Jesus only assumed our sinful human nature, that He did not truly possess sinful human nature, nature that was defiled by 4,000 years of sinning. It begs the questions – Was Jesus truly human? Was He truly tempted in all points, from within and from without? Was He truly our perfect Example?

quote:
… it is the righteousness of Christ which does the cleansing, not the divine nature.

I disagree. We must first receive the implanted mind of the new man, which comes complete with all the righteous fruits and attributes of God’s character, and then we must partake of the divine nature, which empowers us to use our faculties of mind and body to cultivate the character of Christ. The righteousness of Christ is the result of partaking of the divine nature while walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man.

quote:
"Channels of humanity" is simply referring to the human being, who is defiled by sin.

What is defiled by sin? Our blood and bones? Our skin and hair? Our ears and eyes? What do you mean “the” human being is defiled by sin? What do you mean by defiled by sin? Does that mean we are guilty of sinning? Are sinful and sinning one and the same thing?

Re: What does God require before we are baptized? #16887
02/06/06 06:38 PM
02/06/06 06:38 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Old Tom:Instead she writes about the human nature which Christ took or assumed. This apparently seems like splitting hairs to you, as you don't see the difference, but there's a reason she expressed herself the way she did.

MM:But, Tom, by insisting on this difference it sounds like you are saying Jesus only assumed our sinful human nature, that He did not truly possess sinful human nature, nature that was defiled by 4,000 years of sinning.

Tom: EGW insisted on this difference. She wrote on the topic hundreds of times, and *never* used the language you are suggesting. If she insisted on the usage I'm suggesting, why would your complaint not apply to her as well?

MM:It begs the questions – Was Jesus truly human? Was He truly tempted in all points, from within and from without? Was He truly our perfect Example?

Tom:EGW is clear about this, and without resorting to the dubious phrases you suggest.

Old Tom: … it is the righteousness of Christ which does the cleansing, not the divine nature.

MM:I disagree. We must first receive the implanted mind of the new man, which comes complete with all the righteous fruits and attributes of God’s character, and then we must partake of the divine nature, which empowers us to use our faculties of mind and body to cultivate the character of Christ. The righteousness of Christ is the result of partaking of the divine nature while walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man.

Tom:You won't find any support in inspiration which suggests we are purified by divine nature. You will find plenty of support for the idea that the rightouesness of Christ cleanses us. The whole concept that we are purified by divine nature doesn't make sense, because it doesn't address the issue.

quote:
Sin originated in self-seeking. Lucifer, the covering cherub, desired to be first in heaven. He sought to gain control of heavenly beings, to draw them away from their Creator, and to win their homage to himself. Therefore he misrepresented God, attributing to Him the desire for self- exaltation. With his own evil characteristics he sought to invest the loving Creator. Thus he deceived angels. Thus he deceived men. He led them to doubt the word of God, and to distrust His goodness. Because God is a God of justice and terrible majesty, Satan caused them to look upon Him as severe and unforgiving. Thus he drew men to join him in rebellion against God, and the night of woe settled down upon the world.(DA 21, 22)
This quote brings out the real issues involved. Everything centers around God's character, and properly understanding it. The whole purpose of Christ's mission was to reveal God's character that we might be set right and kept right with Him. This is what righteousness by faith is all about.

As you eloquently pointed out, it is we who must be purified. This purification is a purification of mind. It's not a mystical thing, but a change of thinking. We learn to think like Christ, in this way receiving the mind of Christ. We learn to appreciate the principles of God's government, and choose to align ourselves with these principles. Christ purifies our minds when we meditate upon His life; by beholding we become changed.

That Christ partook of divine nature was necessary in order to achieve the righteousness He did by faith, but there was nothing magical about the divine nature which purified anything. Indeed, it makes no sense to suggest that Christ was "purified" by divine nature, because He was never defiled in the first place.

It is sin which defiles, and Christ never sinned. Or to speak of things in terms of mind or thinking, Christ never sullied His mind; His thinkig was always clear; hence He had no need to be purified.

Old Tom: "Channels of humanity" is simply referring to the human being, who is defiled by sin.

MM:What is defiled by sin? Our blood and bones? Our skin and hair? Our ears and eyes? What do you mean “the” human being is defiled by sin? What do you mean by defiled by sin? Does that mean we are guilty of sinning? Are sinful and sinning one and the same thing?

Tom: I explained what I meant. I suggest you reread my post. You're asking odd quesitons, which seems to indicate you didn't read what I wrote. The defilement is in the mind, as I explained. I also explain the thought here.

Regarding "sinful" and "sinning," "sinful" can (and usually does) refer to the *effects* of sin, while "sinning" can (and usually does) refer to participating in sin. The two can be used synomously, but needn't be (and usually aren't). For example, we may say that Christ took our sinful nature upon His sinless nature, but we wouldn't say He took our sinning nature upon His sinful nature.

Re: What does God require before we are baptized? #16888
02/06/06 07:09 PM
02/06/06 07:09 PM
Darius  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
It should be easy to see what is happening here. For some reason Christians ignore the fact that the writers of the Bible were just as capable as we are of using figures of speech. When we read that humans were defiled we miss the obvious metaphoric use. The result is the discussion that is going on now. When I change jobs I do not get defiled by my new boss.

Re: What does God require before we are baptized? #16889
02/06/06 08:10 PM
02/06/06 08:10 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
quote:
When I change jobs I do not get defiled by my new boss.

Please explain (I'm missing your point).

Thanks.

Re: What does God require before we are baptized? #16890
02/06/06 08:17 PM
02/06/06 08:17 PM
Darius  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
If I change masters I am not defiled by the second one so that I need to be cleansed.

Re: What does God require before we are baptized? #16891
02/07/06 03:07 AM
02/07/06 03:07 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, my thinking on this has changed since the beginning of this thread. I no longer think our prayers and praise are purified as they pass through the divine nature. I now think that Jesus first makes us pure, and then as we walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man, as we partake of the divine nature, we are empowered to use our faculties of mind and body to cultivate sinless traits of character, and to utter prayers that are pleasing and acceptable to God.

It looks as though we will have to agree to disagree as to whether or not Jesus only assumed sinful human nature or if He actually possessed sinful human nature. I do not believe Sister White intended for us to interpret "took upon" or "assumed" to mean Jesus did not truly possess sinful human nature, defiled by 4,000 years of sinning.

4BC 1147
He took upon Himself fallen, suffering human nature, degraded and defiled by sin. He took our sorrows, bearing our grief and shame. He endured all the temptations wherewith man is beset. He united humanity with divinity: a divine spirit dwelt in a temple of flesh. He united Himself with the temple. "The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us," because by so doing He could associate with the sinful, sorrowing sons and daughters of Adam (YI Dec. 20, 1900). {4BC 1147.4}

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