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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16872
02/03/06 07:26 PM
02/03/06 07:26 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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Gregory Nanzianzus is wrong. A veterinarian does this everyday. Further, healing was not the purpose of the plan of salvation. Healing will take place when "we are changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye." The purpose of the plan of salvation was to rescue us from Satan's prison.
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16873
02/03/06 08:26 PM
02/03/06 08:26 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Salvation is healing. That's what the word "save" (sodzo) means. We need healing form the effects of sin, both in what it has done to us and in what others have done to us. Mostly we need healing from the harmful effects of what sin causes in how we view God. It's true that salvation involves rescuing us from Satan's prison, which is done by healing us, which is done by revealing God to us through Jesus Christ. quote:
No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is truly God and is closest to the Father, has shown us what God is like. (John 1:18 Contemporary English Version - CEV)
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16874
02/03/06 08:42 PM
02/03/06 08:42 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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If we accept the healing motif we will be forced to say that man did not need to be saved until he had sufficiently deteriorated. The evidence contradicts that view. The race needed salvation the moment Satan claimed it as his.
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16875
02/03/06 08:44 PM
02/03/06 08:44 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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quote:
Originally posted by Darius:
If we accept that view of the healing motif we will be forced to say that man did not need to be saved until he had sufficiently deteriorated. The evidence contradicts that view. The race needed salvation the moment Satan claimed it as his. The healing that was necessary was to restore the ruptured relationship between man and his Creator, not aspects of man's nature.
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16876
02/04/06 07:16 PM
02/04/06 07:16 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Man was "sufficiently deteriorated" the moment he believed the serpent's lies about God's character. To the extent than man believes lies about God, he needs to be healed.
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16877
02/04/06 07:25 PM
02/04/06 07:25 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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Tom, the human mind has an infinite capacity to manipulate the facts so they can fit our conclusions. We will even change the conditions necessary for salvation.
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16878
02/04/06 09:17 PM
02/04/06 09:17 PM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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quote:
Where we differ is that MM thinks it's OK to say that Christ's human nature was faulty, sinful, defiled etc. I note that the Spirit of Prophecy never uses these expressions, and think it would be better to stick to the expressions which are found in inspiration, such as Christ came in the likeness of sinful flesh, Christ assumed our fallen nature, Christ took our sinful nature upon His sinless nature etc.
Tom, the SOP uses defiled, degraded, degenerate, sinful, and unholy to describe the human nature Jesus inherited at His incarnation. His human nature was exactly like ours. It tempted Him from within in the same way we are tempted from within. His flesh generated and communicated unholy thoughts and feelings just like ours does, and, just like born again believers, He resisted them.
His divinity and sinless character did not alter or change His sinful flesh nature in the least. It began sinful, and it continued to be sinful until the day He was resurrected. Please notice that I am making a distinction between nature and character. Two of your favorite authors, Jones and Waggoner, did the same thing.
quote:
An area where MM and I differ is that he thinks that our nature defiles us, but I maintain this cannot be the case because then it would have defiled Christ, since He took the same nature we have.
Actually, I’m not totally clear on this. I suspect the corrupt human channels Sister White wrote about are somehow related to our sinful flesh nature. But when we partake of the divine nature, our prayers and praise pass through the divine nature, which purifies them, making them as pleasing and acceptable to God as though they came from Jesus.
In other words, Jesus doesn’t wait to purify our prayers and praise until after the fact. Instead, He first purifies us, next He empowers us to partake of the nature, and then our prayers and praise ascend to God through the divine nature with the blood and righteousness of Jesus. He doesn’t mix them in afterwards.
Adding His righteousness to our unrighteousness wouldn't do anything to make them pleasing and acceptable to the Father. That's why Jesus purifies and cleanses us from all unrighteousness first. Then, what proceeds from us is pleasing and acceptable to the Father.
Remember, Jesus set aside His own divinity and lived His life just like a born again believer. As such, He partook of the Father’s divine nature, and channeled His prayers and praise through His Father’s divine nature, rather than channeling them through His own divine nature. This makes perfect sense to me.
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16879
02/04/06 09:50 PM
02/04/06 09:50 PM
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" But when we partake of the divine nature, our prayers and praise pass through the divine nature, which purifies them, making them as pleasing and acceptable to God as though they came from Jesus."
I thought that EGW says that even our prayers and praises need to be cleansed by the blood of Christ.
Do you have that quote handy, MM?
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16880
02/05/06 02:02 PM
02/05/06 02:02 PM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Yes, everything we do as born again believers is purified, cleansed and made pleasing and acceptable to our heavenly Father by the blood and righteousness of Jesus. But this happens in Jesus as we experience them, not afterwards. That is, Jesus purifies us first, and then everything we do in Jesus is made pleasing and acceptable to the Father because they pass through the divine nature bypassing our corrupt human channels. If Jesus were to wait to purify our prayers and praise until after they leave us, all defiled, displeasing, and unacceptable, it would be too late. To be acceptable and pleasing they must be purified at the source, before they proceed from us. First make the spring clean and then that which flows from it will be pure. A bad tree cannot bear good fruit, and bad fruit cannot be made good afterwards. Otherwise, our worship would only appear pure in heaven, to the rest of us here on earth it would appear bad and ugly. And that wouldn't speak well of Christianity, would it? It's already having a bad enough time as it is, why would God wait to purify our prayers, praise, obedience, etc, until after it reaches heaven? It just doesn't make sense to me. That's why I believe Jesus first purifies us, and then our religious service ascends to God pure and pleasing, which is good for us here on earth, too. Besides, if God can turn our unrighteousness into righteousness after the fact by simply mixing it or replacing it with Jesus' blood and righteousness - what's to stop Him from doing that with everyone? In that case, nobody would be lost, everybody would be saved, irrespective of unrighteousness. For that matter, these past 6,000 years of sin would have been unnecessary, right? God could have settled the great controversy at the outset of sin. quote:
The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary, but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity, they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God. They ascend not in spotless purity, and unless the Intercessor, who is at God's right hand, presents and purifies all by His righteousness, it is not acceptable to God. All incense from earthly tabernacles must be moist with the cleansing drops of the blood of Christ. He holds before the Father the censer of His own merits, in which there is no taint of earthly corruption. He gathers into this censer the prayers, the praise, and the confessions of His people, and with these He puts His own spotless righteousness. Then, perfumed with the merits of Christ's propitiation, the incense comes up before God wholly and entirely acceptable. Then gracious answers are returned. {1SM 344.2}
Oh, that all may see that everything in obedience, in penitence, in praise and thanksgiving, must be placed upon the glowing fire of the righteousness of Christ. The fragrance of this righteousness ascends like a cloud around the mercy seat. {1SM 344.3}
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16881
02/06/06 01:52 AM
02/06/06 01:52 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Tom, the human mind has an infinite capacity to manipulate the facts so they can fit our conclusions. We will even change the conditions necessary for salvation.
It's true the human mind is great at manipulating facts, as you put it. But the problem isn't with the conditions of salvation. That's an egocentric way of looking at things. The issues are much bigger than just our salvation.
God has been falsely accused by an enemy, and believing these lies is how the Great Controversy came about. Rebellion started when created beings believed these lies. When the truth about God is known, then rebellion will cease.
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