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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16892
02/07/06 01:29 PM
02/07/06 01:29 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Tom, my thinking on this has changed since the beginning of this thread. I no longer think our prayers and praise are purified as they pass through the divine nature. I now think that Jesus first makes us pure, and then as we walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man, as we partake of the divine nature, we are empowered to use our faculties of mind and body to cultivate sinless traits of character, and to utter prayers that are pleasing and acceptable to God.
Good!
quote:
It looks as though we will have to agree to disagree as to whether or not Jesus only assumed sinful human nature or if He actually possessed sinful human nature. I do not believe Sister White intended for us to interpret "took upon" or "assumed" to mean Jesus did not truly possess sinful human nature, defiled by 4,000 years of sinning.
No, I don't disagree with this.
As I pointed out, we agree on the concepts, just not the wording. What you said here is fine. As long as you stay close to what we see in inspired writings, that's fine. When we venture out, you uncork some phrases which, IMO, can be misconstrued to mean something you are not intending.
Again, this is an issue of form, not conceptual differences. For example, I think saying something like "Jesus' human nature was defiled" is definately a bad thing to say. Something like, "Jesus assumed our human nature, which was defiled by sin" is OK. I hope you see the difference.
I guess one other thing I should add is that a couple of times you wrote something to the effect that Jesus set aside His divinity, which isn't right, but you seem to have backed off from that. Christ set aside the perogatives of divinity, but not divinity itself. It this isn't clear, we can discuss it.
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16893
02/07/06 02:16 PM
02/07/06 02:16 PM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Okay. I see what you mean. However, we both need to guard our wording concerning the sinful human nature Jesus inherited at His incarnation. I need to be careful not to imply Jesus' mind or character was defiled by the defiled flesh He inherited, and you need to be careful not to imply that He wasn’t truly, really human or that He didn’t actually posses sinful flesh, which was defiled by 4,000 years of sinning. Also, I never meant to imply Jesus set aside His divinity in the sense He ceased being God.
But now we should look at how these things apply to the title of this thread. I believe Jesus purifies us when we are born again, that this purification should happen before we are baptized, that baptism should be a public testimony that Jesus has already purified us, that He has already cleansed us from all sin, from all unrighteousness, that we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, that we are partaking of the divine nature, that we are maturing in the fruits of the Spirit ...
... and not that we have just embarked upon a process of gradually outgrowing our known and revealed and cultivated sinful traits of character, or that it will require a lifetime of sinning and repenting to overcome our unrevealed sins as God gradually makes us aware of defects and imperfections that are obvious to others but not to us because God hasn't decided it's time for us to become aware of them, that He's waiting to reveal them to us at some later date when we are ready and able to bear it.
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16894
02/07/06 04:52 PM
02/07/06 04:52 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Baptism is a public acknowledgement that one has accepted Jesus Christ as a personal Savior, and in the case of the SDA church, that one has accepted the teachings of the church. I don't think most people have any inkling of the soteriological ramifications; they're making a public acknowledgement that they have accepted Christ(hopefully); that they want to belong to this group, and they believe what the group teaches.
A lot of times people are baptized just because someone want them to.
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16895
02/07/06 09:28 PM
02/07/06 09:28 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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Before we become dogmatic we need to ask why it was that John was baptizing people. Was it because it was required for salvation or was it that this was a social custom when one joined a select group?
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16896
02/08/06 05:47 AM
02/08/06 05:47 AM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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This is a stupid question I have to ask, and am curious about.
What is the difference between John the Baptist's baptism's, and the baptism's of the disciples of Jesus Christ, including the Apostle Paul?
I understand them to be 1 and the same, but its not, and I am having difficulty in figuring that out.
I do not think this detracts from Darius's question about why John was baptising people.
God Bless,
Will
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16897
02/08/06 12:44 PM
02/08/06 12:44 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,009
Ohio
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I think John was baptizing because it was his instruction to do so: quote:
"Now you, child (John), will be called a prophet of the Most High God. You will go before the Lord to prepare his way. You will make his people know that they will be saved by having their sins forgiven (Baptized). With the loving mercy of our God, a new day from heaven will dawn upon us. It will shine on those who live in darkness, in the shadow of death. It will guide us into the path of peace." And so the child grew up and became strong in spirit. John lived in the desert until the time when he came out to preach to Israel.
Luke 1:76 - 80 NCV
I have not seen much evidence to support baptism being a custom among Jews joining a group, however. I also doubt it was a custom to require a changed heart and repentance to join a group in that time. This is the slippery slope we get from the “custom and culture” argument of the Bible though. How much can we say is culture and custom so we can ignore it?
What is the difference between the baptism of John and the baptism of Paul? Well:
quote:
While Apollos was in Corinth, Paul was visiting some places on the way to Ephesus. There he found some followers and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They said, "We have never even heard of a Holy Spirit." So he asked, "What kind of baptism did you have?" They said, "It was the baptism that John taught." Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of changed hearts and lives. He told people to believe in the one who would come after him, and that one is Jesus." When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Paul laid his hands on them, and the Holy Spirit came upon them. They began speaking different llanguages and prophesying. There were about twelve people in this group
Acts 19:1 - 7 NCV
It would seem that Paul's baptism was not Paul's, but the Holy Spirit's, and the difference was that John baptized in preparation of Jesus while the apostles baptized in Jesus.
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16898
02/08/06 01:37 PM
02/08/06 01:37 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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Dave, it is not a matter of ignoring anything but understanding the true significance of a thing. We don't dress the same way that the ancients did because we understand the purpose their mode of dress served. Why should we not do the same for their membership rites.
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16899
02/08/06 02:28 PM
02/08/06 02:28 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,009
Ohio
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And if we should ordain women, keep the Sabbath, practice foot washing, partake in the Lord’s Supper, pay tithe, give each other “holy kisses,” cover our heads, uncover our heads, abstain from unclean meats, drink wine, permit homosexuality, ware a wedding band, and ware other forms of jewelry. I have heard the “custom and culture” argument both for and against almost all of these things. Shame God made the Bible so confusing, isn’t it? I guess that comes from the modern thinking of “relative truth.” As for this matter, I read that John was told to baptize, so that is what John did. Jesus said that we should baptize all nations. If it was only a custom for that area, there would be no need to baptize other nations. Jesus also said that He who believes and is baptized will be saved, so it would seem that baptism had more significance than just joining a particular group. quote:
So go and make followers of all people in the world. Baptize them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Teach them to obey everything that I have taught you, and I will be with you always, even until the end of this age."
Matthew 28:19 – 20 NCV
quote:
Anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved, but anyone who does not believe will be punished.
Mark 16:16 NCV
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16900
02/08/06 02:32 PM
02/08/06 02:32 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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Here is the problem. God did not make the Bible confusing. He did not write it. He is a much better writer and editor than we see in the Bible. Let us accept the Bible for what it is instead of elevating it to a position it neither deserves nor demands.
John was not asked to baptize. He was asked to baptise in a particular mode. This shows that people were accustomed to being baptized in other modes.
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16901
02/08/06 02:32 PM
02/08/06 02:32 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,009
Ohio
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Now I am curios; what is your "understanding" of why "the ancients" dressed the way they did. What lesson have you learned from it?
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