In Rev 3:8, "I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it" - Advent Movement.

This refers to 1844, when the door to the MOST HOLY PLACE is opened and the work there begins. Humans have tried desperately hard to shut that door, but no man can shut it.


In Rev 9:14, "Loose the four angels" denotes the probation ends.

Those are four angels AT THE EUPHRATES, they only affect 1/3 of the population, and there is still time for repentance,

while the four angels of Rev. 7 are at the four corners (direction) of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, when they release, the sealing is past.

It's not the same event.


In Rev 16:12, "the way of the kings of the east might be prepared" denotes the Second Coming of Jesus.

This is the sixth plague, and indeed the seven plagues are yet future, but notice the sixth plague is preparation for the coming, not the coming itself.
The seventh plague of hail etc. is still to come before the actual appearance.


nothing is happening in the seventh church-neither cold nor hot(3:16)?

Really? But the seventh church age has a clear message calling for repentance from this lukewarm lethargy, and to invite Christ into our hearts.
We are very definitely in the seventh church age right now!

Thanks for the good argument in this discussion. I may understand some of your points. However, it seems that many of the arguments only focused to fit things in the timeline of the history. I confess that it was also my most difficult point of understanding for a long time until recently because I only knew the historicist interpretation.

The book of Revelation should be interpreted by the perspective of sanctuary service and its imagery and not by the historical interpretation.
God's way is in the sanctuary. Psalm 77:13 "Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: …"

The voice came out of the temple from the four horns of the golden altar to loose the four angels, which denote the end of the probation. Bible interprets itself. Consider the four angels in Rev 7:1, which they were commanded to HOLD the four winds. 'Hold it; Loose it!' were the command of God. The Seven Trumpets are talking about the imminent approach of the close of the probation. God will not punish the inhabiters of the earth without any warning for the Seven Plagues that are unimaginable and so terrible. Amos 3:7 "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets."

Understanding Revelation by the perspective of the sanctuary service is not in opposition to the historicist method of interpretation.

Since are dealing with the seven trumpets, I will use them as an example --

In the sanctuary ceremonies the first day of every month was begun with the blowing of trumpets and special ceremonies.

It is interesting that seven months pass. Each beginning with the "new moon" ceremony with trumpet blast. At the beginning of the seventh month, we have the seventh trumpet blast with greater ceremony (feast of trumpets), announcing this is the month in which the day of atonement is to take place.

It's very probable that the blowing of the seven trumpets in Revelation correspond to the blowing of trumpets at the seven New Moon (or New Month) festivals in the Old Testament. Each new moon trumpet blowing was understood as a day of judgment in miniature, which warned people to prepare for the final judgment ushered in by the Feast of Trumpets on the "new moon" of the seventh month. When the seventh trumpet blew, it was to announce the Day of Atonement was at hand.

The ten days leading up to the day of Atonement is a period of deep soul searching and repentance to prepare themselves for the final cleansing and judgment on the day of atonement.

In Revelation
There we have seven trumpets blown consecutively, they are not all together . And when the seventh trumpet blows, in Revelation chapter 11, we see the inner door into the Most Holy of Heaven opened and we see the ark, while the 24 elders declare that the time of judgment has come.

Of course what was "seven months" in the Jewish religious yearly cycle equates to the Christian era in full.

I personally believe
1st trumpet -- judgment upon Jerusalem for rejecting Christ
2nd trumpet -- judgment upon imperial Christian Rome
3rd and 4th trumpets concerned papal Rome

The woes concern the Islamic woes
5th -- their first conquest when they took over all lands south of the Mediterranean and became the "king of the south".
6th -- their second great conquests when they took over much of the eastern Christian areas.
7th -- includes what is described in Daniel 11:40-45 the last great war between Islam and Christianity, when the king of the North (Papal led "Christian" armies) appears to win and tries to force the whole world under their headship, but Christ finishes His work in the sanctuary and stands up to deliver His people and claim the kingdom.

5th -- their first conquest when they took over all lands south of the Mediterranean and became the "king of the south".-poster: Dedication

Considering the echoes of Isaiah in trumpet sequence as below, the fallen star in Rev 9:1 has to be the symbol of the Satan, the destroyer.

Isaiah Chap 14 Revelation Chap 9
Great Star Great Star
Heaven Heaven
Fierce struggle Fierce struggle
Fallen(ejection) Fallen(ejection)
Earth Earth
Pit Pit
Destroyer Destroyer

The fifth trumpet definitely portrays the demonic activities and they had a king, whose name is Abaddon, or Apollyon(9:11), which means destroyer.

The fifth trumpet also told us that there was a command ‘that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads(9:4).

The grass and the trees signify men on earth, which the first trumpet also told us that the green grass and the trees will be burn up.

The first plague will be poured upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image(16:2). This passage indicates that whoever has the seal of God in the forehead shall not be hurt, but whoever receives the mark of the beast will be hurt.

Fifth Trumpet(the seal of God)

⇒ First Trumpet(men on earth)
⇒
First Plague(the mark of the beast)

In post #168443, on Sept. 26, you wrote:
"the three woes are talking about the warning about the things that are happening just before the close of the probation."

But now it appears you have the fifth trumpet (first woe) after probation closes -- for it is after the sealing is complete that probation closes.

Also didn't Satan fall from heaven before the creation of this world?
Why would we see him falling from heaven in the fifth trumpet?
True he is the king of the bottomless pit, and the destroyer, but doesn't he work through human beings to activate his plans.

We understand the seven stars in Jesus' hands (Rev. 1:29)are seven "angels" or messengers of the seven churches. "In His hand are seven stars, representing the ministers of the churches."

In the same fashion the evil spirits use people to activate and advance their agenda.

LOOKING AT THE PHRASES IN FIFTH TRUMPET:

"The fifth trumpet also told us that there was a command ‘that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree;"

What is interesting is back around 632 AD when the Islamic conquest set forth to conquer, that very command was given!!!

Abubeker, the successor to the prophet Mohammed, told his troops:
"When you fight the battles of the Lord, acquit yourselves like men, without turning your backs; but let not your victory be stained with the blood of women or children. Destroy no palm-trees, nor burn any fields of corn. Cut down no fruit-trees, nor do any mischief to cattle, only such as you kill to eat. When you make any covenant or article, stand to it, and be as good as your word.

"the three woes are talking about the warning about the things that are happening just before the close of the probation."-Karen Y wrote on Sept 26, 2014

But now it appears you have the fifth trumpet (first woe) after probation closes -- for it is after the sealing is complete that probation closes.-poster:Dedication

My emphatic statement about the three woes plus the other trumpets of the seven is still the same: they are the warnings of the coming plagues-the Seven Plagues.

The first woe, which is the fifth trumpet, is the warning that every soul will be deceived by the demons unless he/she has the seal of God in their forehead (9:4). The seat of the beast (16:10) that was given by the fallen star (Satan, the deceiver) will become full of darkness (16:10) because he is coming out of the bottomless pit (11:7, 17:8, 9:2) to cast the smoke to darken the sun and the air.

‘Abubeker, the successor to the prophet Mohammed’ – Did he come out of the bottomless pit to cast the smoke to the sun and the air which caused the darkness?

In the fifth trumpet’s warning Satan has the key of the bottomless pit (9:1) for a season but he will be shut in (20:1-2) for a thousand years when the key is given to an angel at the second coming of Jesus.

Abubeker, the successor to the prophet Mohammed – Was he the king over the bottomless pit? Was his name given as Abaddon, or Apollyon?

The seat of the beast, which is Catholic Church, snatched the prayers of people that are depicted as the smoke. In Rev 5:8 “…golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints” indicate the reason of the smoke of the pit (9:2) in the fifth trumpet. Thus the fifth trumpet warns the darkness of the fifth plague upon the seat of the beast.

Rev 15:8 “And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled”.

The smoke in the sanctuary portrays the prayers of the saints.

This is what I believe. The Seven Trumpets are the warnings for the Seven Plagues, which is illustrated in the Scriptures as after the completion of the apocalyptic sealing. But the warnings should not have to wait until the events of the Seven Plagues happen. We should make it known to the world while the mercy of God is still available as assured in Rev 8:2-5 during the sound of the seven trumpets.

The sixth trumpet, the horsemen are acting (9:17). Who are they? They are the armies(19:14) that follow the white horse who was ‘called Faithful and True (19:11). They have the powers to plague with the fire, the smoke and brimstone. Their armies of the horsemen are two hundred thousand thousand (9:16). ‘
Demonic agency in the bowel sequence
Sixth plague-these are demonic spirits, performing signs who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty, Armageddon.

The sixth trumpet is warning to the three unclean spirits. The army of the horsemen has weapons for each of the unclean spirit. The fire is for the dragon (heathen religions), the smoke is for the beast (catholic), and the brimstone is for the false prophet (apostate church).

As the two witnesses in Rev Chap. 11 have the powers, the sixth trumpet is saying that the horsemen have powers (9:19) to plague.

Rev 11:6 “These have the power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will”

The sixth trumpet (the second woe) is the warning to the sixth plague. When the apocalyptic sealing is completed and the probation has ended, the sixth plague will fall upon the three unclean spirits.

I can agree with you on "the trumpets are warnings of the coming plagues" or final judgment.
The question however remains -- just what are those warnings and must they take place just days before, or are they on a broader scale -- warning generations of people that they will face judgment?





Again I can agree, everyone who has not received the sealing will be deceived.

However, again -- there is a general sealing, and a final seal.
The apostle Paul wrote to the Corinthians:
"Now he which establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, is God; Who has also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts." 1 Cor. 1:21-22

So again this does not limit the fifth trumpet to some future event just before the plagues. We can look at the way deceptions have been foisted on populations in the past, see where they have led, compare them to scripture and recognize them now. All the old deceptions are amalgamating together in the last great deception.





You pull a lot of things together there.
But you do recognize that "the beast" is an established human power through which Satan works. So we can agree on that point. Further down you mention it's the Catholic Church -- actually it's not the church so much (there are honest Christians in that church) but it is the papal power with all its political, oppressive desire to control.

However, Rev. 11:7 is another power that rose "out of the pit", "here is brought to view a new manifestation of Satanic power." Remember the dragon is a seven headed creature, he isn't working through just one apparently Christian power. He whips up other powers and plays them against each other to create absolute chaos. Rev. 11, a new form of atheist power rises, which gave a graphic example of its character in the French Revolution.
And that violent revolutionary power will again manifest itself.

Before the darkness of the plague descends upon the seat of the beast, that Papal beast will appear as a bright saving (though false) light. The whole world will look to him in worshipful awe as the one to lead them out of chaos into peace.

That will deceive multitudes.





Abubeker, was just one man in the movement. Just like the "beast" is not one single man, but a whole succession of popes, so the power of the locusts, is a succession. And just like the masonic leaders in the French Revolution didn't come out of the pit (but received their power "from beneath") so the swarm of "locusts' receive their power from the same source.

Notice all these movements that used violence to change people's religious inclinations come from the same source.
The dragon gives his power to the first beast in Rev. 13
The second beast in Revelation 13 speaks the language of the dragon.

The atheist beast of Rev. 11 that brought on the "reign of terror" receives it's power from the bottomless pit.
And so also the swarms of Islamic armies of Rev. 9 with their "many horses running to battle" that swept the southern lands of Christianity away and enforced their religion on them are likened to a dark cloud rising from the bottomless pit hiding the sun (salvation in Christ).




No.
It's not saying that THEY (the locusts) were Apollyon, but Apollyon (the destroyer) was their actually their king.
Like I've pointed out -- all these violent powerful human forces that seek to force people into their mold, are following the same "spirit".


Yes, the trumpets are warnings!
The biggest deception that will sweep the world is failure to perceive the full scope of the varied forces Satan is using to reach his goal. His goal is to have the whole world worship him as "God". He stirs the world up into violence by pitting all these previously mentioned powers against each other.
The Bible tells us who will come out on top, and the whole world will worship the beast.
It will seem to the world to be the answer to end the strife, it will appear like the right thing to do. It will appear like Christianity won.
Satan himself, will appear impersonating Christ.
The delusion will be powerful. Yet, it will not be honoring God, but misusing God's law and Word.

By heeding the warnings of history we need not fall prey to the delusions just before us.

Of course, like you mentioned -- we need the sealing power of the Holy Spirit -- without it deception is sure.

Karen, I agree with Ellen White and the pioneers and their historical application of the Trumpets. I also think the Trumpets have another application in future.