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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16912
02/08/06 07:58 PM
02/08/06 07:58 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,009
Ohio
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quote:
It is most important for you to understand what will happen in the last days. People will laugh at you. They will live doing the evil things they want to do. They will say, "Jesus promised to come again. Where is he? Our fathers have died, but the world continues the way it has been since it was made." But they do not want to remember what happened long ago. By the word of God heaven was made, and the earth was made from water and with water. Then the world was flooded and destroyed with water. And that same word of God is keeping heaven and earth that we now have in order to be destroyed by fire. They are being kept for the Judgment Day and the destruction of all who are against God.
2 Peter 3:3 - 7 NCV
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16913
02/08/06 08:34 PM
02/08/06 08:34 PM
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,009
Ohio
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quote:
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: To the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years is as one day.
The Lord is not slow in doing what he promised -- the way some people understand slowness. But God is being patient with you. He does not want anyone to be lost, but he wants all people to change their hearts and lives. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The skies will disappear with a loud noise. Everything in them will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be burned up.
2 Peter 3:8 - 10 NCV
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16914
02/08/06 08:37 PM
02/08/06 08:37 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Well, to be fair, he did not say that that God gets any credit for the Bible either. The response was not committed to either view.
What? There's a lot of things he didn't say. If you are going to address everything he didn't say, you'll be really, really busy.
I don't know if this is clear, so I'll clarify. You stated that Darius didn't say that God got credit for writing the Bible. That's correct. He also didn't say the moon is made of green cheese. I pointed out what Darius did say, which is that God did not write the Bible, which He didn't. So Darius was correct on what he actually said.
Now as to what he didn't say, what is "fair"? This doesn't make any sense.
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16915
02/08/06 08:48 PM
02/08/06 08:48 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Well these are excellent and important questions. That is: 1)What brings everlasting peace? 2)Why hasn't Jesus come? The reason Jesus hasn't come is NOT because it isn't time yet. This unfairly casts God in a poor light. It's not *His* fault Jesus hasn't come; it's ours! God sent us light which if accepted would have filled the light with glory, and Christ would have come: quote:
An unwillingness to yield up preconceived opinions, and to accept this truth, lay at the foundation of a large share of the opposition manifested at Minneapolis against the Lord's message through Brethren {E.J.} Waggoner and {A.T.} Jones. By exciting that opposition Satan succeeded in shutting away from our people, in a great measure, the special power of the Holy Spirit that God longed to impart to them. The enemy prevented them from obtaining that efficiency which might have been theirs in carrying the truth to the world, as the apostles proclaimed it after the day of Pentecost. The light that is to lighten the whole earth with its glory was resisted, and by the action of our own brethren has been in a great degree kept away from the world.(1 SM 234)
So please, let's not blame God!
What brings peace? To answer this question, let's consider what brings discord. Discord comes when we believe the lie the enemy gave regarding God. Believing the lie causes us to react inappropriately to God; by rebellion, rather than faith.
What reconciles us to God? The truth! This is why the cross of Christ has such power, and the life of Christ in general. Through Christ, the lies of the enemy are vanquished. Darkness is overcome by light, and the alienated heart is reconciled to God by faith.
The following brings out the idea well:
quote:
In heaven itself this law was broken. Sin originated in self-seeking. Lucifer, the covering cherub, desired to be first in heaven. He sought to gain control of heavenly beings, to draw them away from their Creator, and to win their homage to himself. Therefore he misrepresented God, attributing to Him the desire for self-exaltation. With his own evil characteristics he sought to invest the loving Creator. Thus he deceived angels. Thus he deceived men. He led them to doubt the word of God, and to distrust His goodness. Because God is a God of justice and terrible majesty, Satan caused them to look upon Him as severe and unforgiving. Thus he drew men to join him in rebellion against God, and the night of woe settled down upon the world.
The earth was dark through misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan's deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known. Upon the world's dark night the Sun of Righteousness must rise, "with healing in His wings." Mal. 4:2. (DA 21, 22)
This brings out the importance of making known the truth about God's character in the context of Christ's Second Coming:
quote:
It is the darkness of misapprehension of God that is enshrouding the world. Men are losing their knowledge of His character. It has been misunderstood and misinterpreted. At this time a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy, and truth.
This is the work outlined by the prophet Isaiah in the words, "O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God! Behold, the Lord God will come with strong hand, and His arm shall rule for Him; behold, His reward is with Him, and His work before Him." Isa. 40:9,10.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love. (COL 415)
Everlasting peace comes when all know the truth about God, and Christ will come when the truth regarding God's character fills the earth with glory.
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16916
02/08/06 08:58 PM
02/08/06 08:58 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,009
Ohio
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Perhaps if you cooled down for a moment it would make sense. Understanding requires one to follow the context.
Darius said, "Let us accept the Bible for what it is instead of elevating it to a position it neither deserves nor demands."
My reply was, "Ah, God gets no credit for the Bible. That would explain your mode of thinking."
To that, Darius said, "Dave, God gets credit for creating the universe. What higher honor can He receive?"
As almost anyone could note, Darius did not say that God gets any credit for the Bible in his response. Really, his response would seem to indicate that God is not to get any credit for the Bible. True, Darius did not say "the moon is made of green cheese," but what significance would that have to anyhintg disccused on this topic during the last 48 hours? I only care about things not said to aviod particular situations partaining to this topic.
Who is blaming God for Jesus not coming? No matter who is at fault, the time still has not yet come. If it had come, Jesus would have come; don’t read too quickly over 2 Peter 3!
Is it me, or are you just repeating a lot of what I am saying Tom?
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16917
02/08/06 09:02 PM
02/08/06 09:02 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,009
Ohio
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quote:
Earth and sky will be destroyed, but the words I have said will never be destroyed. "No one knows when that day or time will be, not the angels in heaven, not even the Son. Only the Father knows."
Mark 13:31 - 32 NCV
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16918
02/08/06 09:50 PM
02/08/06 09:50 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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Dave, you are quoting a lot of texts but nothing that is of any use to our dilemma. If you don't blame God for the delay then you must blame us. This means you should be concerned with what we can do to hasten the Second Coming. Instead you said, It's not time yet. Something is off here.
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16919
02/08/06 11:19 PM
02/08/06 11:19 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Dave:Perhaps if you cooled down for a moment it would make sense. Understanding requires one to follow the context. Tom:Why do you think I'm not "cooled down"? Why do think I'm the one who's not understanding this? Why do you assume I'm not understanding the context? Dave:Darius said, "Let us accept the Bible for what it is instead of elevating it to a position it neither deserves nor demands." My reply was, "Ah, God gets no credit for the Bible. That would explain your mode of thinking." To that, Darius said, "Dave, God gets credit for creating the universe. What higher honor can He receive?" Tom: It's interesting that you suggest I pay attention to the context, and then mistate it. Here's what actually happened. Darius wrote this: quote:
Here is the problem. God did not make the Bible confusing. He did not write it. He is a much better writer and editor than we see in the Bible. Let us accept the Bible for what it is instead of elevating it to a position it neither deserves nor demands.
John was not asked to baptize. He was asked to baptise in a particular mode. This shows that people were accustomed to being baptized in other modes.
To which you responded, for some unknown reason:
quote:
Ah, God gets no credit for the Bible. That would explain your mode of thinking.
Dave:As almost anyone could note, Darius did not say that God gets any credit for the Bible in his response.
Tom:Right. And he also didn't say the moon is made of cheese, and a bunch of other things.
Dave:Really, his response would seem to indicate that God is not to get any credit for the Bible. True, Darius did not say "the moon is made of green cheese," but what significance would that have to anyhintg disccused on this topic during the last 48 hours? I only care about things not said to aviod particular situations partaining to this topic.
Tom:Darius didn't say anything about credit. You lept to this conclusion, not based on anything Darius wrote, as far as I can tell. When he made the comment about not elevating the Bible, it was in the context of God's not having written it, not in the context of not getting credit for it.
Why is God's getting credit for it something you comment on? Darius wasn't talking about that!
Dave:Who is blaming God for Jesus not coming? No matter who is at fault, the time still has not yet come. If it had come, Jesus would have come; don’t read too quickly over 2 Peter 3!
Is it me, or are you just repeating a lot of what I am saying Tom?
Tom:I'm not sure if I'm repeating a lot of what you're saying or not. It doesn't seem so to me, but I hope you're right, as that would mean we are seeing things similarly, which would be cool.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your meaning in saying the time's not ready. That not something I would say, but you may have a different meaning in mind. Usually when people say that Christ hasn't come because the time isn't right, they have in mind that God is sending Christ according to some preordained time table which hasn't arrived yet, so I assumed that's what you had in mind.
At any rate, I wrote a detailed response as to why I think Christ hasn't come, so you can see from that where I'm coming from, and see if you agree with the perspective I presented.
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16920
02/09/06 01:00 AM
02/09/06 01:00 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,009
Ohio
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quote:
Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
Why do you think I'm not "cooled down"? Why do think I'm the one who's not understanding this? Why do you assume I'm not understanding the context?
Because your response seemed rather flamitory. I think you are the one not understanding because you said, "This doesn't make any sense." If it does not make sense, that means you do not understand something, and the most likely thing you do not understand is the context.
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
It's interesting that you suggest I pay attention to the context, and then mistate it. Here's what actually happened. Darius wrote this:
quote:
Here is the problem. God did not make the Bible confusing. He did not write it. He is a much better writer and editor than we see in the Bible. Let us accept the Bible for what it is instead of elevating it to a position it neither deserves nor demands.
John was not asked to baptize. He was asked to baptise in a particular mode. This shows that people were accustomed to being baptized in other modes.
To which you responded, for some unknown reason:
quote:
Ah, God gets no credit for the Bible. That would explain your mode of thinking.
:
And in the interest of fairness, once again, the second paragraph of what Darius wrote was not present when I responded. It was edited in after I responded. I have never said that God wrote the Bible (excluding Exodus 20) - only that God was the source of the information. So, for Darius to make the statement he did, and direct it at me, it would imply that he sees no credit to be given to God.
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
Darius didn't say anything about credit. You lept to this conclusion, not based on anything Darius wrote, as far as I can tell. When he made the comment about not elevating the Bible, it was in the context of God's not having written it, not in the context of not getting credit for it.
Why is God's getting credit for it something you comment on? Darius wasn't talking about that!
Actually, he did talk about credit: "Dave, God gets credit for creating the universe. What higher honor can He receive?" Here Darius says that get gets credit for the universe, but he does not say God gets credit for the Bible. This is the very point in witch the context becomes important.
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
I'm not sure if I'm repeating a lot of what you're saying or not. It doesn't seem so to me, but I hope you're right, as that would mean we are seeing things similarly, which would be cool.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your meaning in saying the time's not ready. That not something I would say, but you may have a different meaning in mind. Usually when people say that Christ hasn't come because the time isn't right, they have in mind that God is sending Christ according to some preordained time table which hasn't arrived yet, so I assumed that's what you had in mind.
At any rate, I wrote a detailed response as to why I think Christ hasn't come, so you can see from that where I'm coming from, and see if you agree with the perspective I presented.
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
To the baptism question. John's baptism was to prepare the way for the coming Messiah. Paul's baptism was to proclaim faith in the Messiah who came. That's one difference.
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Hoover:
What is the difference between the baptism of John and the baptism of Paul? Well:
quote:
While Apollos was in Corinth, Paul was visiting some places on the way to Ephesus. There he found some followers and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They said, "We have never even heard of a Holy Spirit." So he asked, "What kind of baptism did you have?" They said, "It was the baptism that John taught." Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of changed hearts and lives. He told people to believe in the one who would come after him, and that one is Jesus." When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Paul laid his hands on them, and the Holy Spirit came upon them. They began speaking different languages and prophesying. There were about twelve people in this group
Acts 19:1 - 7 NCV
It would seem that Paul's baptism was not Paul's, but the Holy Spirit's, and the difference was that John baptized in preparation of Jesus while the apostles baptized in Jesus.
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Re: What does God require before we are baptized?
#16921
02/09/06 01:06 AM
02/09/06 01:06 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,009
Ohio
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quote:
Originally posted by Darius:
This means you should be concerned with what we can do to hasten the Second Coming. Instead you said, It's not time yet. Something is off here.
Here is the best thing we could do:
quote:
So go and make followers of all people in the world. Baptize them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Teach them to obey everything that I have taught you, and I will be with you always, even until the end of this age."
Matthew 28:19 – 20 NCV
Jesus has not come because the time is not right. I have made no comment on what makes the time right!
I think the cheese I just threw out in the back of my refrigerator is off, could that be it? ![[Rolling Over For Laughter]](graemlins/ROFL.gif)
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